A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity This is a video put together by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (the largest Lutheran denomination in the US). The stated purpose of the video is to help Lutherans and other Protestants understand the Catholic Church.
Although the video is a Lutheran attempt to educate about the Roman Catholic Church, I think that it also ends up also telling a lot about the faith and mindset of the makers, who I think are very typical of mainline Protestantism (in contrast to fundamentalist Protestantism) . IMO it is excellent, all the way to the end. You can tell us if you agree, or think it is misleading.
I saw it on You-Tube while looking at a video Praying4Patience posted.
Click on the 'watch video' link. Hope you have a fast connection!
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity pretty good piece .Overall it was excellent.Can't find much to criticize but there are a few issues i want to take up.
Also, it's Catholic Church...Latin or Eastern rites.
Some Eastern churches reconciled.This is not mentioned. I get frustrated when the Eastern rites get overlooked. That's the reason for our Eastern rite forum.I realize though the piece tried to cover a lot in a short time-perhaps it was the time constraint.
The piece sort of glazed over the revolt aka the "reformation".This is an issue for me.Luther et all did not reform the Church.However,i would not expect a Lutheran piece to call the reformation a revolt.Not very realistic.
They did mention indulgences.The problem was NOT indulgences-we still have them.
The problem was abuse by SOME;the Church has NEVER dropped the teaching of indulgences.They did clean up the abuses by SOME.To this day there are indulgences we can obtain.
The 7 sacraments are scriptural.The piece suggests that ONLY 2 are scriptural.That is an error.
I would suggest though if someone really wanted to understand the Catholic Church to begin w/ the Catechism.
Highly recommend.
Also the writings,particularly encyclicals,of JPII.
Theology of the Body is also a good one to read to understand Church teaching re marriage.
The piece was better than some i've seen.It's one way to start,but i don't think 1/2 hr will do it.
Onslow what do you think would be a good way to reach ppl who don't know much about the Catholic Church or don't understand it? The piece is a great way to start dialouge. I think that was the intention and that was effective. It's a bit hard to fit into a half hour format doctrines that ppl are not familiar with. It's a great start though. Lutheran liturgy and doctrine is remarkbly similiar- but with some essential differences..The video did point this ou t.
.IMHO the further down the road the revolt gets the further the denominations get away from the Church.In fact i think a lot of doctrines were dropped simply because they were "too" Catholic.
IMHO Jesus desired and prayed for unity and said they'd be one as He and the Father were one.To us that was the plan.It's unfortunate that the revolt took place to begin with or he did not reconcile before it all got out of hand.In the end though i think the Catholic Church was probably the least of his worries.Once he(Luther)started the ball got roll ing and he had disagreements in the ranks. That's my OPINION.I'm not speaking for the Church or anyone else here for that matter.
How do you see it?
GB!~
p4p
Last edited by praying4patience, 3/29/2007, 2:20 pm
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity Hi Praying4Patience:
Somehow when I read your post initially I missed that you had asked me some questions. Sorry,
quote:
praying4patience wrote:
I would suggest though if someone really wanted to understand the Catholic Church to begin w/ the Catechism.
Highly recommend.
I don't know if you watched that far, but twoards the end the film says that very thing - pick up a Catechism.
quote:
praying4patience wrote:
Onslow what do you think would be a good way to reach ppl who don't know much about the Catholic Church or don't understand it? The piece is a great way to start dialouge. I think that was the intention and that was effective. It's a bit hard to fit into a half hour format doctrines that ppl are not familiar with.
I think that be best way is by trying.
I think the best way starts with just making an effort.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot, in connection with my denomination and our issues with shrinking churches. And, I think you are in somewhat of a similar situation to us.
In my limited experience, Catholics (along with Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc…, but most especially Catholics) are not comfortable (generalization obviously) talking seriously about their faith with people outside their church. Or, they don’t seem to think that there is any need or reason to do so (the world outside the Church seems hopelessly polluted or lost…). Or, they think it’s the job of the clergy and Religious. Catholics and the Church don’t evangelize (at least not much), and the churches are usually not very ‘visitor friendly’.
The Catholic Church also gives the impression to outsiders that it views outsiders kind of like the Jewish synagogues do: if for some reason you wan’t to come and be Jewish, we guess that would be OK, but we’re pretty happy with the people we already have and our real priority is getting real Jews, those people born Jewish, to go to Synagogue and follow the Torah’s teachings. I’m not saying that’s what Catholics think, but that’s the strong impression outsiders have.
I’d say some simple things you could do are:
1) Make an effort to make your congregations visitor friendly. Now, Part of this can't be helped: your closed sacraments. At least in the churches I have visited (probably a dozen) there is no visible attempt to accommodate visitors and make them feel welcome, to help them understand what’s going on, to understand the very extensive symbolism, what to do and when. It feels like a closed society. To a non-Catholic, walking into a Catholic Church feels like walking into a party where everyone else knows each other and is having a good time, and you only know the host, only he had to leave. You can feel that there is something good happening, but its something inaccessible to you. And, most people don’t like this feeling.
If you see someone who looks like they don’t know what’s going on, or signing the visitors book, go up to them and find out if they are visitors, or if they are Catholic. If they aren’t Catholic, offer to sit with them and explain what goes on in mass. Let them know how happy you are to have a visitor. After mass, find out something about them. Introduce them to the priest, some other people in the congregation who share something in common with them (have young kids, work in the same industry, etc, like to crochet….) and offer to show them around the parish center. Invite them back next week. This is what we really make a point to do in our church, and the evangelicals do this and a whole lot more. I attend Mass 2-4 times a year, and no-one has ever even said as much as ‘hi’. You don’t feel hostility, but more confusion and strangeness, which makes it an experience most visitors don't want to repeat. If the only thing the visitor remembers being directed at them the whole time they were there them is the warning to them not to come up for communion, that's not going to inspire them to come back.
2) Don’t be so hesitant to talk about faith. When the opening comes up in a conversation with a friend or aquaintance, follow it up. A friend who says “My husband is having a mid-life crisis, he’s wondering about his life, what its all about” should be an introduction to a much longer conversation about whether that person is a Christian, explaining the Christian/Catholic message to them. This is something I am just starting to work on.
3) When you do talk about your faith, it usually tends to be about a few ‘gatekeeper’ items that distinguish you from other Christians: what you can’t eat in lent, what you have to do on holy days of obligation, your penances, jokes about how awful Catholic School was. Because of this, people who aren’t Catholic tend to think of you more for your unique practices (for your ‘eccentricities’ as it were, meant in a positive way ) rather than having an understanding of your core values, the essence of your faith, the stuff that the Catechism talks a lot about: belief in God, become man, salvation through the grace of God alone, delivered through the sacraments, the grown of sanctification of the faithful, etc…. People know what Baptists ‘core values’ are. People don’t know what your ‘core values are’. What they do know is that you like Mary a lot and don’t eat meat on Friday sometimes and like to have big families and have a leader you’re supposed to listen to, who sometimes wears a very funny hat. And, when someone gets the urge from God to get on the right track, those aren’t things that are usually going to be what causes someone to chose to visit a particular church.
That’s one reason I liked that video. Obviously its brief, but it tries to get behind the ‘eccentricities’ to the substance.
Again, these are impressions of some Non-Catholics (Christian or not). I’m not saying they are true. Rather, they are impression a lot of people have about you, which handicap you if you decide you want to reach out.
Is that remotely what you were asking????
quote:
praying4patience wrote:
IMHO Jesus desired and prayed for unity and said they'd be one as He and the Father were one.To us that was the plan.It's unfortunate that the revolt took place to begin with or he did not reconcile before it all got out of hand.
How do you see it?
GB!~
p4p
We Reformed wouild be in COMPLETE agreement on what you said here (except, we would say 'reformation', not 'revolt').
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity Well, I watched this when I was here but still absolutely positive I was not ever returning... hehe. It did help in getting rid of those anti-Catholic blinders.
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity That video was very well done! I have a lot of respect for the ELCA for putting that video together and publicizing it. Thanks for posting that Onslow.
quote:
I’d say some simple things you could do are:
1) Make an effort to make your congregations visitor friendly. Now, Part of this can't be helped: your closed sacraments. At least in the churches I have visited (probably a dozen) there is no visible attempt to accommodate visitors and make them feel welcome, to help them understand what’s going on, to understand the very extensive symbolism, what to do and when. It feels like a closed society. To a non-Catholic, walking into a Catholic Church feels like walking into a party where everyone else knows each other and is having a good time, and you only know the host, only he had to leave. You can feel that there is something good happening, but its something inaccessible to you. And, most people don’t like this feeling.
If you see someone who looks like they don’t know what’s going on, or signing the visitors book, go up to them and find out if they are visitors, or if they are Catholic. If they aren’t Catholic, offer to sit with them and explain what goes on in mass. Let them know how happy you are to have a visitor. After mass, find out something about them. Introduce them to the priest, some other people in the congregation who share something in common with them (have young kids, work in the same industry, etc, like to crochet….) and offer to show them around the parish center. Invite them back next week. This is what we really make a point to do in our church, and the evangelicals do this and a whole lot more. I attend Mass 2-4 times a year, and no-one has ever even said as much as ‘hi’. You don’t feel hostility, but more confusion and strangeness, which makes it an experience most visitors don't want to repeat. If the only thing the visitor remembers being directed at them the whole time they were there them is the warning to them not to come up for communion, that's not going to inspire them to come back.
2) Don’t be so hesitant to talk about faith. When the opening comes up in a conversation with a friend or aquaintance, follow it up. A friend who says “My husband is having a mid-life crisis, he’s wondering about his life, what its all about” should be an introduction to a much longer conversation about whether that person is a Christian, explaining the Christian/Catholic message to them. This is something I am just starting to work on.
3) When you do talk about your faith, it usually tends to be about a few ‘gatekeeper’ items that distinguish you from other Christians: what you can’t eat in lent, what you have to do on holy days of obligation, your penances, jokes about how awful Catholic School was. Because of this, people who aren’t Catholic tend to think of you more for your unique practices (for your ‘eccentricities’ as it were, meant in a positive way ) rather than having an understanding of your core values, the essence of your faith, the stuff that the Catechism talks a lot about: belief in God, become man, salvation through the grace of God alone, delivered through the sacraments, the grown of sanctification of the faithful, etc…. People know what Baptists ‘core values’ are. People don’t know what your ‘core values are’. What they do know is that you like Mary a lot and don’t eat meat on Friday sometimes and like to have big families and have a leader you’re supposed to listen to, who sometimes wears a very funny hat. And, when someone gets the urge from God to get on the right track, those aren’t things that are usually going to be what causes someone to chose to visit a particular church.
Great suggestions Onlsow. I'll take these to heart in my parish community. Our diocese is really making an effort to address perceptions such as you bring to light.
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity They did talk about the Catholic Reformation and then the Protestant Reformation. The illustration of the few things differing compared to all that we collectively don't differ on... that helped to further soften my heart. Plus just the way you all have been toward me in spite of me. Things are clicking in that should have the first time around. I know, for me, where I belong, right where I started.
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity FYI, I noticed recently on a Lutheran web site that in the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed, the word "Catholic" has been changed to "Christian". So according to them, the four marks of the Church is that it is "One, Holy, Christian, and Apostolic".
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity
quote:
Onslow7 wrote:
1) Make an effort to make your congregations visitor friendly...
If you see someone who looks like they don’t know what’s going on, or signing the visitors book, go up to them and find out if they are visitors, or if they are Catholic. If they aren’t Catholic, offer to sit with them and explain what goes on in mass. Let them know how happy you are to have a visitor...
2) Don’t be so hesitant to talk about faith...
Onslow, for what it's worth, I completely agree with you. In my parish, the commentator announces at the beginning of mass that everyone is welcome, especially visitors. A survey of our parishioners a few years ago indicated that the majority of our members thought that made us "friendly" to visitors. I think that's pathetic. I've suggested various efforts over the years but every one would involve work on someone's part and might actually increase the length of the mass by five minutes, , so the efforts have been rejected.
I have been to exactly one Catholic church where I felt like I was welcome as a visitor. I'm part of the family so I know I belong, but in that one parish, a priest saw me signing their guest book and went out of his way to welcome me, then he acknowledged me at mass, etc. Several people introduced themselves and offered assistance, offered to show me around, etc. I've probably been to a hundred or more parish churches over 50 years, and this has happened exactly once.
I think it's pathetic. However, it is not an indictment of the Church, bot rather of the churches, pastors, and bishops.
On the other hand, I have never been to a Protestant church where I was not addressed as a visitor. A couple of times I've been singled out in a negative way as a Catholic, but generally it has been a positive welcome.
This is definitely an area where we can improve. I only wish my own pastors had been and would be more open to hospitality for visitors.
Re: A Lutheran perspective on Catholic Christianity The church I had been in, and there's a lot of good people there... I remember when I first walked in back in 2003, one of the ministry leaders came up and handed me a little folder with information about the church and a pen inside. It was something that made me feel welcomed & accepted.I think by the next week I was invited to Bible study. The church I just joined, they also have been very welcoming and I'm still letting things seep in here...
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
) rather than having an understanding of your core values, the essence of your faith, the stuff that the Catechism talks a lot about: belief in God, become man, salvation through the grace of God alone, delivered through the sacraments, the grown of sanctification of the faithful, etc…. People know what Baptists ‘core values’ are. People don’t know what your ‘core values are’. What they do know is that you like Mary a lot and don’t eat meat on Friday sometimes and like to have big families and have a leader you’re supposed to listen to, who sometimes wears a very funny hat. And, when someone gets the urge from God to get on the right track, those aren’t things that are usually going to be what causes someone to chose to visit a particular church.
