Gone Fishin . . . Okay, I have been visiting and reading at forums all over the place. To sit quietly and read all of the garbage which gets posted back and forth from Protestant to Catholic and Catholic to Protestant. I realized the lesson of going fishing with Jesus.
The Apostles were out in that boat casting nets into the water -- nothing. They cast them again -- nothing. They cast them again -- nothing. No matter what they did, they came up empty handed. (I guess no empty beer bottles or rubber boots, either, as those things were not common in those times, but I digress.) We are talking seriously empty-handed.
Jesus pops in and says toss in that net again. "Why? It's useless.", but they did it. Suddenly, they were looking atall the fish in the boat hollering -- "We need a bigger boat!" What changed? There was no bait -- so it wasn't the bait. There was no different net -- same net. There were no different people -- same apostles. Yet, where there were no fish, there were suddenly fish. Guess Jesus must have called those fish. All the Apostles had to do was be there with the net ready to bring them in.
About now, I can here PfP saying,"Alright, Marti, what's your point?"
Having visited these forums where all manner of behavior is excused for the purpose of bringing people to Christ -- the nets are empty. They are lying, calling each other names, posting pictures of all manner of rude things and claim to be doing it all "for Christ". The nets are empty. The post count is incredible. The visit count is massive. The nets are empty.
There on the quiet sites where Jesus is discussed daily -- where the ways of the Church are put forth knowledgably in answer to questions -- where there is not a game of us versus them going on -- where people are not trying to score the winning point -- there is where I see fish in the net. People who come to the desire for God and are seeking direction. Now, they are not overcrowding the boats, but at least they are there.
WE CANNOT SAVE ANYONE! Only Jesus can do that. We are called to be there with the nets ready and let Christ do the talking through us. The instruction for the Evangelizers in the NT was to go and take not a care for what they will say because God will provide the words. They were simply to live the Christian example and let God handle the rest.
I wonder if that is why these aggressive sites are not filling the boats.
We need to look at ourselves on every board we participate and ask ourselves whether we are fishing with Jesus or just with our ego? We will never fill the boat until we surrender the mission to Christ.
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
People who come to the desire for God and are seeking direction.
All that you posted,true and this stood out.Never be ashamsed to point ppl in that direction. Can't do it with a 2 x4,but we can't cower in the corner either.Our Protesant(umbrella term) brothers and sisters-to their credit-have never been shy about it.They shout to the rooftops,go door to door,tell you what THEY believe any time they have a chance. The Mormon missionaries give up 2 yrs of their life to do same.And here we Catholics have a treasure and we hardly say boo.It's almost as if we've always been ashamed,embarrased or just not wanting to be 'pushy' so we've barely opened our mouths.
Then came John Paul II and he not only spoke but spoke everywhere in front of zillions of kids. PPL did not believe they would show up to even listen to him.There were zillions.
(They're called the JPII generation.)
People were astounded.
I've never been shy about speaking up,but when it comes to the Catholic Church you could almost say tenacious.JPII called for a New Evangelization.We can use every means possible-and he knew it too.As does Mother Angelica.She's built an empire of Catholic evangelization.
IF one little message board can reach just ONE person that we may never ever know.Good enough.Maybe i've gotten goofy about it-but goofy it is.One person who really went to town on the Evangelization train and threw away the mold.OpusDieUSA.
Unfortunately i don't think he's gonna be back here.Now that guy was a tornado,who hit you before you even knew what you were hit with! And all he did was stand up,speak the truth.
GR 8 stories Marti,much wisdom and i bet a forum that's going to do real well.I'm very proud of what you've done here.
Excellent.
=D
i look forward to more.
Your goofy Catholic friend,
p4p
the one thing i kinda miss here is our table of emoties.
Last edited by praying4patience, 3/29/2006, 7:34 pm
Re: Gone Fishin . . . Okay, now you've done it, I will have to do an entire post on why Catholics are quiet -- especially in the USA. (It has an historical basis, you know.)
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
The famous 'weding' chapter from Corintians came to mind after reading your parable:
quote:
1 If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, F65 but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things
(Corinthians 13). And, as our scriptural experts tell us, "Love" in greek could easily have been translated 'compassion'.
I think you have hit the nail on the head.
When we go 'fishing', we have to take Christ with us. If we say "I'm going out with the bag of the seed of the word of Christ, but I'm going to do it my way", we can't count on Christ going with us.
In my limited experience with on-line religious bulletin boards, you shake your head and say "where is God in this discussion???? Where is the love of Christ????". Too, often, 'Love' is an abstract term. We think we can be snide, contemptuous, conceited, angry and hateful and follow it with 'I love you, I'm just speaking the TRUTH', and that makes it so.
Okay, now you've done it, I will have to do an entire post on why Catholics are quiet -- especially in the USA. (It has an historical basis, you know.)
You guys are even worse about sharing the Christian faith than we Presbyterians are (which is saying something....)
I have wondered about this too.
Catholic friends and acquaintances never open up about their faith with me, even when I bring up the topic.
When I sent my daughter to a Catholic school five years ago, I was nervous about a couple of things. One of which was that we'd get bugged about why we weren't Catholic. But, I have been amazed by the fact that in five years, not a single person has ever even brought up the issue: not the other parents, the sisters who teach there, the priests, etc... Although we're actively involved at the school, no-one has ever invited us to mass, gave us pamphlets or books, told us about what being in the church meant to them, asked if they could chat about faith, etc.... Nobody has even ever asked why we chose a Catholic school for our kids. Now don't take me wrong, I'm not complaining at all, I'm just relating it to confirm what Marti said.
Boy, if I even did so much as send my kids to a baptist school picnic, I'd have people giving me their testimony, sending me literature, ringing my doorbell to invite me to church. Not to mention what the Mormons would do.... (my wife last was in an LDS service at age 6. I won't tell you how old she is now , but she still gets regular letters and visits from missionaries trying to get her to 'come home'). They are very good abouit opening up with strangers, etc...
I think you guys have a lot of good things to say. You, like us in other branches of the Christian church, can bring the message Christ to a world that desperately needs it. And, while we seriously disagree with you in some areas, (although to be frank, in some areas I think you are closer to the truth than a lot of Protestants), I think Christ wants for both of us to try and reach the un-reached.
Re: Gone Fishin . . . I don't think Catholic Schools are considered mission grounds for attracting converts, they were started for a reason and that was to give good quality education in this country. It used to be that Catholic parents could also count on their kids getting solid Catholic teaching and not the secular slant that is taught at the public schools. But much of the teaching material has been watered down and those teaching don't always have a solid background in the faith. You can't give what you don't have. I am sure that those in the school try to make it comfortable for the children of non-Catholics and not apply pressure that would bother them or their parents. The children are exposed to the Mass, a little of the religion, and hopefully the good example of the priests, nuns and Catholic lay teachers and other students. You can usually do more by example than by brow beating someone. Most Protestants who are really interested in seeking truth will be more receptive to Scott Hahn tapes than they will to the tract type approach. I am surprised that the school hasn't invited you to good family events that happen at the Church.
God bless you,
--- It is difficult
to stumble when
you are on your knees.
Rooster 2006
Okay, now you've done it, I will have to do an entire post on why Catholics are quiet -- especially in the USA. (It has an historical basis, you know.)
See what happens when I get busy -- I say things and forget to do them. Okay, here goes.
Often we think that Catholics in America are like Catholics everywhere else. This is not true. Yet, let us first discuss what is the same. For Catholics, faith is a very intimate thing. There is good reason that the Church is represented as the bride of Christ. After accepting Christ, there is an intimacy that grows. The human equivalent is seen in the man/woman love relationship. They date to get to know one another and fall in love. This is a very exciting feeling and one that is often announced and dicussed especially among giddy young people. However, once they marry, there is an intimacy which is not casually shared with others. A guy who spoke casually with his buddies about girls he dated, does not do so about his wife. To do so is to violate the intimacy shared with his wife and to expose all the tender feeling of his heart and soul to all.
This is a major difference between Catholic and the non-Catholic Christians. The further one goes from the Church the less intimate the relationship becomes. For many the giddiness of falling in love is being mistaken for the end all, be all of the relationship. This giddiness is considered "being saved" and the sum total of salvation which precludes the intimate relationship of the day for the rest of life.
Catholics having been saved from slavery to sin, become free to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, and soul. Laying bare all that is there and daily handing it over to Christ. It is the sharing of hopes, dreams, sins, and shortcomings. It is the growth in walking with Christ until we lay bare to Him the things that no mortal will ever be privy to about ourselves. It is the ultimate vulnerability.
With that one becomes, like a spouse, tuned into the very feelings of Christ. One sets one's entire life to His purpose like the good wife to her husband. Can one look at one's sin and seeing Christ reach out with that hand marred by the nail which our sin bought and scarred by the hurt which our sin brought, not feel that to the marrow of one's bones? Oh, he will forgive and that love makes one weep with the depth of feeling. How can one even begin to blithely discuss that love? To whisper under my breath the name of my beloved Lord -- "Jesus" -- has the power of such love that pulls my feet right out from under me and makes my knees quake as I kneel overwhelmed by such love.
So, we start at a different point in bringing witness to the world. What cannot always be spoken is seen in every aspect of the Christian's life. Yet, there is in most Catholic cultures a spoken witness that is lacking in America.
We are the products of our training. Our training in the U.S. is to silently practice our faith. In the original 13 colonies were not people seeking religious freedom for all. On the contrary, they were people trying to create a place where their theology held the influence the Church had in Europe. In order to establish such a culture, they had to ban the Church. (I am always reminded in this of the relationship of light to dark. The light may shine in the darkness, however where there is light, the darkness cannot prosper and is dispelled.) In the effort to bring forth a society where Puritanism and like Protestantism prospered was to ban Catholicism. In the 13 colonies, only 2 allowed for Catholics and then the Catholics had to be silent about their faith and were precluded from all public offices, etc.
The first major touch of Catholicism came during the revolutionary war. This is a war that need not have happened -- look at Canada and Australia, etc. The war was pushed for by those like Samuel Adams who wanted to wrest power from the king.Tacation without representation was the propoganda, but Adams' motivation was to make the colonies a Puritan society with Puritan government and control.
Oh, what a difficult day it was when they realized that without the help of the French Catholics, there quest for seperation from England was a lost cause. So, they asked one Catholic to sign the Declaration of Independence. That one Catholic, seeing the opportunity to make a place for Catholics in the colonies and the country which would emerge, risked more than any other signer of that document. He then took a group north to ask the French Catholics in Canada for help. Long and short, the Catholics were instrumental in bring victory to the Americans in the Revolutionary war.
However, when the war was over, there was a bid to return things to normal. This meant to rid themselves of Catholics. Thus was the original Constitution to bear a clause requiring citizens of the US to renounce allegiance to all foreign powers. The idea was that they would have to choose to disassociate from the Pope and the rest of the Church to become US citizens. Anybody who clung to the Catholic Church would, by this means, be denied citizenship. That Catholic signer of the Declaration spoke up very quietly, but effectively and thus was born the freedom of religion clause that Americans hold so dear.
We were now allowed to legally exist, but there was still an overwhelming prejudice against Catholics. So, Catholics were taught to be quiet. We could practice our religion but had to do so quietly. True to form, while not voicing witness to the faith, Catholics lived that faith. The fruits of that faith were all the social goods that cared for the poor as Christ asked. Catholic schools, orphanages, and hospitals grew up as our first social service structure. Sometime after the depression it would be replaced as the government had now been placed in charge of such services by the provisions of the New Deal championed by Roosevelt. Not uttering a word which would have provoked anger among the Protestants, Catholic Americans simply lived the faith and their lives were a witness. From those scant numbers n 2 colonies, Catholics have come to be the majority religion in the US. The number of states where Catholicism is not the majority religion are able to be counted on one hand. Yet, we are still quiet. So quiet that most Catholics do not realize that Catholicism is the largest religious body in the US and most non-Catholics could not even fathom that such a thing could be true. The funny thing is that the non-Catholics have been successful in one manner. By keeping the Catholics quiet, they have made the people of this majority religion feel like the step-child -- the unnormal people, religiously and thus have Catholics continued to be quiet but still faithful to the life Christ has chosen for them.
The saddest part is that seperated from the mainstream, American religion has run far afield to the point where all manner of things are accepted as normal and give rise to such things as the Halley-Bopp people who thought Jesus would come by comet, as well as those who followed Jesus by Kool-aid through Jim Jones. Most people have no idea why they rant against Catholicism, bringing to the table the arguments of old which have been handed down. They do not even know what they are arguing against. However, such a society of do-it-yourself religion has made a safe haven for egos and thus accounts for so many souls who are drawn away from the Church. We American Catholics are going to have to leave the tradition of silent American Catholics for the sake of those who are wandering. May the Lord help us find our voices.
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
I don't think Catholic Schools are considered mission grounds for attracting converts, they were started for a reason and that was to give good quality education in this country. It used to be that Catholic parents could also count on their kids getting solid Catholic teaching and not the secular slant that is taught at the public schools. But much of the teaching material has been watered down and those teaching don't always have a solid background in the faith. You can't give what you don't have. I am sure that those in the school try to make it comfortable for the children of non-Catholics and not apply pressure that would bother them or their parents. The children are exposed to the Mass, a little of the religion, and hopefully the good example of the priests, nuns and Catholic lay teachers and other students. You can usually do more by example than by brow beating someone.
Again, I'm not complaining: I do appreciate that neither the school nor the parents have pressured us or our children. And, I do appreciate the Christian edcuation they have gotten. I don't think its extremely intense, compared to some Catholic scoools, but they 1) get a good grounding in the fundamentals of our Christian faith. 2) They learn to approach the world with a theistic, moral mindset. They get a couple hours a week in religion training, from several great sisters and a wonderful Monsignior. And, faith is incorporated into other things they do. They can pray before meals. As you say they get to meet sisters and the Bishop, etc... They are way ahead of the other kids in our church in Sunday School (certainly not something I can take credit for....) The texts they use are really very good. Overall, I'd say this school, although small and struggling, has really helped my children, and I see them as 'fishing with a net', to go back to Marti's metaphor.
I think this is the kind of approach many of us Christians could take, if we were just a little more intentional about our 'fishing'-
By keeping the Catholics quiet, they have made the people of this majority religion feel like the step-child -- the unnormal people, religiously and thus have Catholics continued to be quiet but still faithful to the life Christ has chosen for them.
Do you (plural) really feel like step-children in the U.S.? Do you really feel like you are disliked?
quote:
Christians having been saved from slavery to sin, become free to love the Lord with all their heart, mind, and soul. Laying bare all that is there and daily handing it over to Christ. It is the sharing of hopes, dreams, sins, and shortcomings. It is the growth in walking with Christ until we lay bare to Him the things that no mortal will ever be privy to about ourselves. It is the ultimate vulnerability.
I like the way you say that. I changed your very first word, since what you say of course applies to every Christian, not just Catholics-
I don't think I understand what you're saying about a 'deeper intimacy' with God being somehow responsible for American Catholics not openly 'fishing' as much. Shouldn't a deeper intimacy with God lead one to follow his command to evangelize more attentively, rather than less?
quote:
This is a major difference between Catholic and the non-Catholic Christians. The further one goes from the Church the less intimate the relationship becomes. For many the giddiness of falling in love is being mistaken for the end all, be all of the relationship. This giddiness is considered "being saved" and the sum total of salvation which precludes the intimate relationship of the day for the rest of life.
I agree with the second part (as would most Protestants), but disagree with your first two sentences (well, depending on how you are using the word'Church'). True, too many mistake the experience of the relationship for the relationship (I get nervous about using the word 'relationship', because I don't know what it means, other than it seems to mean whatever one wants it to mean).
Do you (plural) really feel like step-children in the U.S.? Do you really feel like you are disliked?
Well, I am not sure about the disliked -- except by the rabid anti-Catholics and they tend to hide behind the anonimity of the internet or the security of written editorials and articles. However, there is a growing contingent that teaches at their churches that Catholicism is a cult. The people of their congregation know nothing about Catholicism but react when they find out you are a Catholic as if you just told them you were a Moonie or Hare Khrisna.
The part that truly brings things home is when parents are standing on the sidelines and speaking at a little league practice and the talk turns to church activities. They can be of all manner of differing faiths and know nothing of the major differences between themselves, yet they will consider each other Christians on just the claim. Somebody will look at you and ask "What church do you go to?"
"St. Patrick's"
"The Catholic Church?"
"Yes."
"Oh."
They will turn back to their conversation turning more towards each other so you are somewhat excluded without being obviously rude. Within ten minutes they will have literally slid a few yards away -- inch by inch -- until you are standing alone. I don't even think they are conscious of doing it.
With the more mainstream Protestants, one is often met with a different attitude. They regard Catholics as Christians but when talking they will relegate the Catholic to a position of "known error". They will just be talking and say things in passing which places one in the awkward position of either being quiet or confronting it and saying it was not an error of the Church.
"It must be difficult to be a Catholic homeschooling parent and have to teach history to your children. I mean like teaching about the crusades. It's got to be difficult to try to maintain it was correct. At least when we homeschool, we can be honest about things like that."
That was a comment actually made to me. :plz
While in public school, World History, my oldest found it interesting the manner in which Catholicism was portrayed. Christianity spread through Europe and the civilized world. In this there is no mention of the Catholic Church, even though no other Christian church existed to bring about this spread of Christianity. However, the Catholics were indeed responsible for any atrocities of the Crusades. Catholics were also responsible for repressing religious beliefs until the time of the Reformation when Luther and Calvin liberated Europe which would result in the religious freedom found in the US Constitution. (No mention that the religious freedom clause was suggested by a Catholic. ) Our schools are heavily biased in this manner.
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
Gone Fishin . . .
, but she still gets regular letters and visits from missionaries trying to get her to 'come home'). They are very good abouit opening up with strangers, etc...
