I like the way you say that. I changed your very first word, since what you say of course applies to every Christian, not just Catholics-
Absolutely. I did not mean to imply otherwise. To free all men from slavery to sin was why the Lord became man. It often amazes me that so many choose that first touch with the entire miracle of salvation that continues through life. This is what I was speaking of.
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I don't think I understand what you're saying about a 'deeper intimacy' with God being somehow responsible for American Catholics not openly 'fishing' as much. Shouldn't a deeper intimacy with God lead one to follow his command to evangelize more attentively, rather than less?
I think it was my explanation (long hours these days). It is not about abandoning a command but about how it is obeyed. So, often the standard is some guy speaking about "Jay-e-a-sus" which I can never figure out how to make a 5 syllable word. Followed by the "Let me tell you what Jesus can do for you." It then becomes really difficult to meet a standard you don't hold to.
Shall I run up and ask "Are you saved?" Should I tell you about all the things Jesus promises to do? Most people evangelizing in this manner have no idea what salvation is. They think it is eternal life. That is not salvation. That is just the expression of salvation.
The apostles did not go in and just overwhelm people with preaching. They entered communities and took up life -- living their faith and telling people the basis of the difference. This is Catholic evangelism. Living the faith and having people know by their lives. However, if you combine this quieter witness with the heritage of American Catholics, you often get the combination where they live the witness and forget that at times they need to speak it as well.
Yet, in the visual comparison even where someone remembers to speak and does, it is not viewed as witnessing because it does not do the overwhelm with jumping up and down. The intimacy of a deep relationship with Christ cannot be expressed like that.
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
The part that truly brings things home is when parents are standing on the sidelines and speaking at a little league practice and the talk turns to church activities. They can be of all manner of differing faiths and know nothing of the major differences between themselves, yet they will consider each other Christians on just the claim. Somebody will look at you and ask "What church do you go to?"
"St. Patrick's"
"The Catholic Church?"
"Yes."
"Oh."
They will turn back to their conversation turning more towards each other so you are somewhat excluded without being obviously rude. Within ten minutes they will have literally slid a few yards away -- inch by inch -- until you are standing alone. I don't even think they are conscious of doing it.
With the more mainstream Protestants, one is often met with a different attitude. They regard Catholics as Christians but when talking they will relegate the Catholic to a position of "known error". They will just be talking and say things in passing which places one in the awkward position of either being quiet or confronting it and saying it was not an error of the Church.
Marti:
I think this is just the human tendency to want to talk to people like you. I wouldn't take it as a slight. If I have a party, the people with young kids will talk to other people with young kids. The college students will talk to other college students, etc...
But my observation is this: Catholics tend to keep to themselves much more than others. You attribute this to a defensiveness caused by a background of being in a religious minority experienceing discrimination. I don't know, but I'll take your word for it. But, you're not discriminated against any more. And, I think this defensiveness or protectionism or whatever you call it is very counterproductive to you now. If Non-Catholics don't have any idea about Catholic beliefs and practices, its because despite being the largest religious group in the US, too many Catholics are so guarded about their faith, their beliefs, etc....
At least among Catholics I know, they socialize primarily or exclusively with other Catholics. I have tried on occasion to talk about faith with Catholics I know, but they usually don't want to get into it.
Baptists have a saying "Yeast can't rise in the package".
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With the more mainstream Protestants, one is often met with a different attitude. They regard Catholics as Christians but when talking they will relegate the Catholic to a position of "known error".
But, thats what your church says of of Non-Catholic Christians. Are your surprised when some non-Catholics say the same in return?
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So, often the standard is some guy speaking about "Jay-e-a-sus" which I can never figure out how to make a 5 syllable word. Followed by the "Let me tell you what Jesus can do for you."
You're just not trying hard enough! Try it with me now, "Jah-----eeeee----sawwwww-uhhhhsssss".
While in public school, World History, my oldest found it interesting the manner in which Catholicism was portrayed. Christianity spread through Europe and the civilized world. In this there is no mention of the Catholic Church, even though no other Christian church existed to bring about this spread of Christianity. However, the Catholics were indeed responsible for any atrocities of the Crusades. Catholics were also responsible for repressing religious beliefs until the time of the Reformation when Luther and Calvin liberated Europe which would result in the religious freedom found in the US Constitution. (No mention that the religious freedom clause was suggested by a Catholic. ) Our schools are heavily biased in this manner.
OK, you have caught on to something here ....
Its comparable to: when telling someone about something bad your kids did, they are 'those kids'. But, when they do something good, they become 'my kids'.
Yes, I'll admit we Protestants tend to get an unfair break on that count. Sometimes we don't think about the fact that a great many of the sins of the western Church were committed before the reformation. And, since we Protestants trace our history through the pre-reformation western church every bit as much as Roman Catholics do, in my mind it is just as accurate to hold the Crusades against the United Methodist Church as it is against the Roman Catholic church. The inquisition too: began late 1470's, 40 years before Luther's 95 theses....
Now, I do think we have a better answer to these sins than the Roman Catholic church does (which is one reason I am a Protestant), because we can recognize that we are fallible, admit we made a mistake and that we need God's forgiveness, and that we (hopefully) learned our lesson.
So, what happens is that we take credit for the good stuff in Christian history, and blame the Catholics for the bad stuff.... For what its worth, I do try to correct this when I hear such a comment made...
You're just not trying hard enough! Try it with me now, "Jah-----eeeee----sawwwww-uhhhhsssss".
Wait a minute . . . . . . that was still only FOUR. You really have to go fundy to get there!
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But my observation is this: Catholics tend to keep to themselves much more than others. You attribute this to a defensiveness caused by a background of being in a religious minority experienceing discrimination. I don't know, but I'll take your word for it. But, you're not discriminated against any more.
Confession time: I am only third generation born American in my family. Additionally, my family is Baptist and Lutheran. I was raised Catholic by the Baptists. So, now we see the problem. American Catholics learned the behavior during the historical eras of history right up into the '60's. The call was for nobody to vote for JFK as he was Catholic and would sell the country out to the Pope and whatever the Pope said, he would do. The only thing that turned the election was the black vote brought about by John calling Mrs. King when her husband was in jail and she was pregnant.
In any case, the learned behavior is passed on and most Catholics do not even know why it is. I do because I wanted to know what caused us Catholics to be so different from my relatives. :058 So learned behavior which people do not understand is passed on as regularly as the untrue things that Luther said in anger that have been passed along so long that people spout them as truth with no idea where they came from and the arguments from Calvin, which do not apply as people have tossed Calvinism. They spout the arguments with no idea where they originated. So, everybody is interacting with learned behavior. It is only when we break out of these molds that we grow in the Spirit with one another. (Please take that as a compliment, Onslow. )
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With the more mainstream Protestants, one is often met with a different attitude. They regard Catholics as Christians but when talking they will relegate the Catholic to a position of "known error".
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But, thats what your church says of of Non-Catholic Christians. Are your surprised when some non-Catholics say the same in return?
Actually not. We regard people as being in unknown error. If they knew the error, they would convert or else they are choosing damnation. As long as it is unknown error, it is ignorance and they are not culpable for heresy. This is a major difference from those who wink and imply we know we are in error but refuse to admit it. Subtle, but major difference.
As to your other post, I would like to move it to our interfaith Christian discussion, as I think it is the beginning of more than one great discussions. if that is alright with you (I will wait for reply on that.). Contained in your post is the difference in definitions of church, the discussion of what was right and wrong with the Crusades, then we can do the Inquisition, and a discussion of infallibility. Quite a lot of cud we can chew that would be well served by placing it where we should have a greater participation from various vantage points.
--- DEUS meus, ex toto corde amo Te super omnia, quia es infinite bonus et infinite amabilis; et ob amorem Tui proximum meum diligo sicut meipsum, eique, si quid in me offendit, ignosco.
Wait a minute . . . . . . that was still only FOUR. You really have to go fundy to get there!
OK, I've tried aand I can't get it out to five syllables....
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But, thats what your church says of of Non-Catholic Christians. Are your surprised when some non-Catholics say the same in return?
Actually not. We regard people as being in unknown error. If they knew the error, they would convert or else they are choosing damnation. As long as it is unknown error, it is ignorance and they are not culpable for heresy. This is a major difference from those who wink and imply we know we are in error but refuse to admit it. Subtle, but major difference.
OK, I gotcha-
quote:
As to your other post, I would like to move it to our interfaith Christian discussion, as I think it is the beginning of more than one great discussions. if that is alright with you (I will wait for reply on that.). Contained in your post is the difference in definitions of church, the discussion of what was right and wrong with the Crusades, then we can do the Inquisition, and a discussion of infallibility. Quite a lot of cud we can chew that would be well served by placing it where we should have a greater participation from various vantage points.
Are you sure you really want to discuss the crusades or inquistion? :zthink I have yet to see a discussion on the internet about either the crusades or inquistion which stayed civil or on-point for more than 3 posts, but if you have another angle, use my post however you wish! It may take some strong-armed moderating....
I don't know a whole lot about either of those issues, so I may not be able to contribute much there.
Now, the nature of the Church, or the issue of authority, that's more interesting stuff!!! I was reading an encyclical on the nature of the Church not too long ago- :zthink
Re: Gone Fishin . . . Marti, your insight is incredible. You have a unique way of seeing things, and an even more unique way of expressing yourself. I am enjoying your Penguin Parables.
This thread in particular reminded me of several things that I would like to share.
First, the words of St. Francis of Assisi: "Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."
Second, a story from Hurricane Katrina. As the masses were evacuated from New Orleans after the levees broke, tens of thousands came to our communities only 50 miles away. Every available auditorium, gym, or other public or private facility was commandeered, and the survivors were packed like sardines. They had no food, no water, no clothes, no toothbrushes, no medication, no anything. Many had been separated from family members and had no idea where their spouses or parents or children were, or even if they were alive.
Our diocese mobilized quickly with what we called Matthew 25 teams. Thousands of volunteers descended on the shelters to provide basic necessities. Other churches responded as well. Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, and people of every faith were here to help. Truckloads of supplies arrived within days, while local churches took up collections of food and clothing. Eighteen wheelers arrived from Catholic Relief Services, Food for the Poor, the Salvation Army, Jehovah's Witnesses, commercial manufacturers, and anyone else you could imagine. It was more than a week before government presence was felt; it was the local churches and the Red Cross that carried the load while waiting.
Christians of every flavor were very much in evidence, but there was a difference. An old, black Baptist lady from New Orleans told a friend of mine, "When the Protestants talked to us, they were preaching. When the Catholics came, we felt loved."
When people started returning to New Orleans, the Catholic schools were the first to open. They took all children, regardless of where they went to school before the storm, and provided a free education. Fr. William Maestri, the head of schools for the Archdiocese of New Orleans, was asked by a reporter if the schools were open only to Catholics. His answer was, "We don't minister because they're Catholic. We minister because we're Catholic."
And that's the best description of Catholic evangelization I've ever heard.
Marti, your insight is incredible. You have a unique way of seeing things, and an even more unique way of expressing yourself. I am enjoying your Penguin Parables.
Glad you told her that CR because i've been telling Marti for the longest time she ought to try to get these published.
Maybe if someone else(like you) gives her a little poke in the side she'll give it a try.
Thanks for the info and insight into the disaster in your neck of the woods. Mainstream media certainly wouldn't pick up such stories so it was good to hear this on a personal level from someone that was there.
Marti, your insight is incredible. You have a unique way of seeing things, and an even more unique way of expressing yourself. I am enjoying your Penguin Parables.
Glad you told her that CR because i've been telling Marti for the longest time she ought to try to get these published.
I actually plan to ask her if I can "borrow" some of them and cross post them at CHN (with proper credit to this forum, of course), but I thought I'd give you guys a chance to get to know me a little better before I started begging and suggesting things!
Re: Gone Fishin . . . Ask and suggest all you like.
Always open to suggestions.
GB!~
p4p
BTW rick.Our chats are kind of impromptu.We just happen to show up as the same time and run to the chat. You're welcome to stop in there as well.
Last edited by praying4patience, 12/31/2006, 9:05 pm
BTW rick.Our chats are kind of impromptu.We just happen to show up as the same time and run to the chat. You're welcome to stop in there as well.
You may regret the invitation!
Our chats are currently being held at ECatholic2000. Our room is called "ComingHome" and the password is "Grodi". Our chats are Wednesday from 8-10pm ET, and all are invited.
We also meet occasionally at CrossDaily where our intention is evangelization rather than support. We had one last week and are currently considering scheduling them monthly, but that's still a work in progress.
Followed by the "Let me tell you what Jesus can do for you." It then becomes really difficult to meet a standard you don't hold to.
The intimacy of a deep relationship with Christ cannot be expressed like that.
....
to p and f
