Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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I don't understand the importance of "apostolic succession."
Jesus says He is going to build His Church,He gives Peter the keys,the power to bind and loose and forgive sins.He tells them to baptize all nations in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit and to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.He says He will be with the Church till the end of the age.
Now if there is no apostolic succession(which Andy might take up or i can)then everything ended with the death of the last apostle.
So there went preaching to the ends of the earth,binding and loosing,forgiving sins,Baptizing all nations,preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth and being with the Church till the end of the age.
All the apostles die and it's over.
The Holy Spirit vanishes into thin air and we don't have His Church until the 16th century.
With all due respect Mel i think Jesus plan works better.
That said let me ask you a few questions:
where did Jesus teach an altar call?
A sinners prayer? Do all denominations have bishops?
Do all lay on hands(as the apostles did)?
Whose interpretation of scripture is correct?How did we come up with the canon and books of inspired scripture? How do we know that gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke and John were written by Matthew,Mark,Luke and John?
If authorit wasn't passed down then who decided which books were inspired? And why were these accepted and not this batch of other books?
Why bother giving the keys and the power to bind and loose since it hardly matters?
Or for that matter the power to forgive sins?
Why bother? What difference could the commands have made since they couldn't be fullfilled?
If Jesus is going to be with His Church till the end of the age why does He vanish till the 16th century?
GB~!
p4p
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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For example, when a Brit calls a nobleman "my lord" it doesn't mean that they are equal to "Our Lord" Jesus Christ.
Capitolization makes all the difference.
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This link from Wikianswers might be a good place to start a discussion on the term "Holy Father" for the Pope. It has a basic resposne to the question with common Protestant objections added.
I didn't see a link. Why is everything underlined over here?
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I agree. But I can also see how some can find it offensive, or even a blow to ecumenical talks.
I guess it's because if a Protestant says Roman Catholicism isn't Christian, they're condemned as "Catholic-bashers." Yet, the pope will turn around and say the same thing against Reformed churches. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.
My elephant is still missing!
--- I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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I guess it's because if a Protestant says Roman Catholicism isn't Christian, they're condemned as "Catholic-bashers." Yet, the pope will turn around and say the same thing against Reformed churches. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.
I can say this since I was a basher, there’s a difference between discussing verses attacking. I was attacking, I had a vendetta. More and more it’s all making more sense. I don’t see that Christianity just ceased to exist until Luther came about. And I know there's posts of my out there long before I was here that contradict what I'm saying but I've already exposed myself to the fact that I know I was in error.
Last edited by HasahZ, 7/12/2007, 1:49 pm
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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I didn't see a link. Why is everything underlined over here?
I don't know. Click on the word "link" in that sentence. I'll check with P4P to see if its a runboard problem or a CP&F problem.
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I guess it's because if a Protestant says Roman Catholicism isn't Christian, they're condemned as "Catholic-bashers." Yet, the pope will turn around and say the same thing against Reformed churches. Seems a bit like a double standard to me.
Not really. The pope is not saying that Reformed churches aren't Christian faith communities. In fact, the documents say just the opposite.
In my experience, Catholic "bashers" say the Catholic Church is a cult and not a Christian faith community (to set up the rest of their propaganda). If the pope said that the Reformed churches weren't Christian faith communities, then yes, that would be a double standard.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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Jesus says He is going to build His Church,He gives Peter the keys,the power to bind and loose and forgive sins.He tells them to baptize all nations in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit and to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.He says He will be with the Church till the end of the age.
I don't see "apostolic succession" in there anywhere. Jesus built His Church, and it exists to this day, but not limited to man's boundaries or denominations.
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Now if there is no apostolic succession(which Andy might take up or i can)then everything ended with the death of the last apostle.
Where does it say that?
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All the apostles die and it's over.
No, we have God's Word, and His Church still exists. We may disagree on exactly what that means, however.
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The Holy Spirit vanishes into thin air and we don't have His Church until the 16th century.
I am so tired of this argument. I've been seeing it all over the place, and it's nothing but a strawman. No Protestant says the Holy Spirit or the Church disappeared until the Reformation. Show me where it says that.
Did God just disappear when the Israelites were constantly whining and complaining in the desert? When they worshipped idols, built high places and carried on with all sorts of pagan idolatry? No. So, why would we think that Jesus would just disappear from His Church when it began to become corrupt? No, He reformed it. Some would call it "the Rebellion."
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With all due respect Mel i think Jesus plan works better.
I think so, too.
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That said let me ask you a few questions:
where did Jesus teach an altar call?
He didn't. Is it wrong?
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A sinners prayer?
Nope, not Biblical.
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Do all denominations have bishops?
Nope, Where's a pope mentioned?
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Do all lay on hands(as the apostles did)?
Nope, are all apostles?
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Whose interpretation of scripture is correct?
God's.
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How did we come up with the canon and books of inspired scripture?
God gave them to us. Then someone added stuff to it. Then it was taken out again.
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How do we know that gospels of Matthew,Mark,Luke and John were written by Matthew,Mark,Luke and John?
I don't know. Is that relevant?
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If authorit wasn't passed down then who decided which books were inspired?
God did.
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And why were these accepted and not this batch of other books?
Because God is in control.
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Why bother giving the keys and the power to bind and loose since it hardly matters?
Are you Peter? Is the pope Peter? Who says it was passed down to anyone else?
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Or for that matter the power to forgive sins?
Who says it was passed down to anyone else? God forgives sins.
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Why bother? What difference could the commands have made since they couldn't be fullfilled?
Weren't they?
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If Jesus is going to be with His Church till the end of the age why does He vanish till the 16th century?
He didn't.
My elephant is still missing. Does anyone have the number to the police? I think it was stolen.
--- I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church Ok, I got the link to work. I'll check that out. Everything's still underlined over here. Seems to be the only board with this issue.
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In his cover letter, Cardinal Levada said the document came in response to critical reactions to the teaching of "Dominus Iesus," another doctrinal congregation document of 2000, which said the Catholic Church was necessary for salvation, and to ongoing confusion over interpretations of the phrase "subsists in."
I am outside the Catholic church, which this states is necessary for salvation. How then, according to this, am I saved?
Where would I hide if I were an elephant? Hmmm...
--- I know who saved my soul and I want this world to know, that I was once blind, once lost, Now I'm blood bought, reconciled to God by the blood He shed on the cross. -Eternal M.o.G.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church I really don't understand what the all the to-do is about. This is not new teaching or a reversal of Vatican II and has nothing really to do with ecumenism. But the same thing happened in 2000 when the CDF published Dominus Iesus. This new document merely restates some of what can be found there and in the Church's teaching throughout the past 2000 years. Nothing is new or different. Why be insulted over 2000 year old teachings?
The following are teachings to which all Catholics are required to give an assent of faith:
The Church
The Divine Origin of the Church
1. The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. (Sent. certa.)
2. The Church was founded by the God-Man Jesus Christ. (De fide.)
The Constitution of the Church
1. Christ founded the Church in order to continue His work of redemption for all time. (De fide.)
2. By reason of her purpose and the means she uses to effect it the Church is a supernatural spiritual society. (Sent. certa.)
3. The Church is a perfect society. (Sent. certa.)
.Christ gave His Church an hierarchical constitution. (De fide.)
5.The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the bishops. (De fide.)
6.Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible head of the whole Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction. (De fide.)
7.According to Christ's ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time. (De fide.)
8.The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome. (De fide.)
9.The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide.)
10. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)
11. By virtue of Divine Right the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses. (De fide.)
12. The individual bishop receives his pastoral power immediately from the Pope. (Sent. probabilior.)
The Internal Constitution of the Church
1.Christ founded the Church. (De fide.)
2.Christ is the Head of the Church. (De fide.)
3.Our Redeemer Himself conserves with divine power the society founded by Him, the Church. (Pius XII)
4.Christ is the Divine Redeemer of His Body, the Church. (Pius XII.)
5.The Holy Ghost is the Soul of the Church. (Sent. communis.)
The Properties or Essential Attributes of the Church
1.The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)
2. In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)
3.The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals. (De fide.)
4.The secondary object of the Infallibility is truths of the Christian teaching on faith and morals, which are not formally revealed, but which are closely connected with the teaching of Revelation. (Sent. certa.)
5.The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)
6.The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)
7.The Church founded by Christ is an external visible commonwealth. (Sent. certa.)
8.The Church founded by Christ is unique and one. (De fide.)
9.The Church founded by Christ is holy. (De fide.)
10.Not only those members who are holy but the sinners also belong to the Church. (Sent. certa.)
11.The Church founded by Christ is catholic. (De fide.)
12.The Church founded by Christ is apostolic. (De fide.)
The Necessity of the Church
1. The members of the Church are those who have validly received the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church. (Sent. certa.)
2. Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. (De fide.)
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Capitolization makes all the difference.
Huh? The Earl of Spencer, the brother of the late Princess Diana, is addressed as Lord Spencer. Capital L. Nobody has ever mistaken him for the Savior.
Andy, please do start a thread on Apostolic Succesion so we may show that it is perfectly Biblical.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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I am outside the Catholic church, which this states is necessary for salvation. How then, according to this, am I saved?
In what sense do you mean you're "outside the Catholic Church"?
Did you read Dominus Iesus to see how the document explains it? If you don't have time, I can post the relevant passages so we're drawing conclusions from the actual document.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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You already have a thread that I listened to yesterday.
Thanks Hasah.
I might start a new one anyway, since that one covers papal succession, in particular. It has a good starting point for apostolic succession though. I'll use what I can from the thread for the new one.
