Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church I'm on Firefox as I loathe IEeeeks emphatically, always have. I opened this link in IE and now I see the underlining you're talking about, I didn't see it in Firefox. Might just something w/out a closing tag. I tried reading page source in IE but I still get frustrated reading and wasn't going to 'listen' to all that computer code... ack!
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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I am outside the Catholic church, which this states is necessary for salvation. How then, according to this, am I saved?
First of all, we don't know if we're saved until we die. We can have good hope of salvation, but not certainty. We are working out our salvation in fear and trembling, yet it is God who is at work in us.
The possibility of salvation exists for those who are not formal members of the Church if they are outside the Church through no fault of their own.
If a person has been properly baptized yet is not a formal member of the visible Church, he or she belongs to the soul of the Church. The Church has visible and invisible elements.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church We’ve been through this topic in depth when we read Lumen Gentium last year, and had some good discussion there.
I think we need to get this one point resolved: are Mel and Knux and I “Inside’ the church or are we ‘outside’ the church. Are we part of the Church or not? The documents on this topic seem to present it both ways.
God’s Gadfly has us inside the church, and IMO what he says is logically true if we are going to admit any possibility of us getting saved:
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God’s Gadfly said:
No one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. That does not mean that non-Catholics can't be saved. It means that, if someone is truly saved, they are part of the Church. Everyone in Heaven is part of the Catholic Church.
But, other Catholics won’t go this far. I read Portia as carefully keeping us outside the church,:
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Portia said:
The possibility of salvation exists for those who are not formal members of the Church if they are outside the Church through no fault of their own.
If a person has been properly baptized yet is not a formal member of the visible Church, he or she belongs to the soul of the Church. The Church has visible and invisible elements.
If we are ‘outside the Church’ we can’t possibly be saved, at least not if we adhere to 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'. If we are inside the church, then my kids should get the Catholic student tuition discount after all.
Which way is it? I have school registration in a month and if there is any way I could get the extra dough....
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The commentary said that, at first glance, Catholic ecumenism might seem somewhat paradoxical, because it holds that the Catholic Church has the "fullness" of the means for salvation, but recognizes the value of elements in other churches.
Yeah, they are right there.
I know Catholics are offended and insulted when told by evangelicals that they are not Christians, and I am too. That’s because we know the significance of the word ‘Christian’ to evangelicals.
But, if you know the importance of the word ‘Church’ in Catholic theology , the Catholic churches’ statement that we are not Christian Churches at all is just as serious a condemnation. In Protestant theology of the Church, the church is Christ's body, and is made up of those called by God. If you are not part of the Church, you aren't a Christian and are basically part of false religion or a cult. Maybe this will shed some light on why the reaction of Protestants to a statement like this is so negative.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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Ok, I got the link to work. I'll check that out. Everything's still underlined over here. Seems to be the only board with this issue.
i'll respond to your post when i have more time tmw Mel but for now i wondered about this.What is it you're talking about?
I've missed it.IF this is something that needs fixed i'd like to get it done asap.
But i'm clueless what you're reffering to.
thanks..i appreciate the heads up on problems.
GB!~
p4p
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church If you open the page in Firefox you won't see it... if you open the dreaded IEeeeeks you'll see everything underlined in the text. I tried finding it in view source but don't have the patience to sift through the code... somewhere I think there's a link or some code that didn't have the ending tag put in.... maybe?
Then again, opened another page and I'm seeing underlining too unless my eyes are messing with me which is entirely possible. Could check later on for you if you can't find it.
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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are Mel and Knux and I “Inside’ the church or are we ‘outside’ the church. Are we part of the Church or not?
You are in a certain imperfect communion with the Church, if you have been properly baptized. Yet, you are not formal members of the visible Church.
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is logically true if we are going to admit any possibility of us getting saved:
No, because it is possible to be outside the Church and be saved. It is possible for Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. to be saved.
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I read Portia as carefully keeping us outside the church,:
Hey, I don't keep anybody outside the Church. Ya'll are welcome. I will get together my official sources and quote from them this weekend. I'll try to get started tomorrow but I have some things to do in 3D that I can't put off.
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at least not if we adhere to 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'.
The problem is that the dogma is hardly ever understood the way it's meant. People who are outside the Church through no fault of their own are not excluded from the possibility of salvation and they never were. We are bound by the Sacraments, God is not.
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The documents on this topic seem to present it both ways.
What documents? Do you mean one document presents the position in two different ways?
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If we are inside the church, then my kids should get the Catholic student tuition discount after all.
We've been over this before and I thought we agreed that you were entitled to a partial discount?
Onslow, I totally understand why Protestants would be offended based on your definition of "church."
I think there are three or four definitions of church going on in this thread.
1. the looser definition of church that Protestants formally use (e.g., the Helvetic confession) to also mean "Christian"
2. the more common use of the word that we use in everyday language (everything from "denomination" to "building where Christians gather to worship")
3. "outside the Church there is no salvation"
4. the definition used by the pope in this latest document that has roots in Catholic dialogue with the Orthodox and includes apostolic succession
It's easy to get confused and frustrated when the pope uses one definition and we're thinking another definition.
I'm not trying to brush off how you feel about the document, just explain how these documents can say on one hand that Protestant communities aren't "churches in the proper sense" but are still Christians. I'll post the appropriate references.
The greatest challenge to ecumenical dialogue, IMHO, is language. This thread illustrates it well, I think.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church Appropriate references for this discussion.
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On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63
Dominus Iesus, No. 17
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837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist."324
Catechism of the Catholic Church
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14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart."(12*) All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)
Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.
15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. (17*) Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.
Lumen Gentium
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3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)
Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.
The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.
It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.
DECREE ON ECUMENISM UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, Number 3
