Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church This is the lead piece in the latest issue of The Christian Century.
I think the author makes some valuable points:
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The Roman Catholic Church recently restated its view that Protestant churches are not "churches in the proper sense." Some Protestants take offense. But we need not. The word church in Catholic parlance refers to those bodies that have bishops in apostolic succession and that recognize the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. The statement is aimed not primarily at Protestants but at certain liberal and conservative Catholic interpreters of Vatican II (see "Not-so-fully church," by Jared Wicks, S.J.).
The fact is that many Protestants don't hold to the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and no Protestant body (except for the Anglicans) insists on having bishops in apostolic succession. Nor do Protestants accept the primacy of the pope. In a way, the Vatican has simply stated the obvious: Christians remain divided—separated by, among other things, different views of what is essential for church to be church.
Protestants have their own various means of identifying the church in the present state of ecclesial division. For Lutheran and Reformed traditions the church is where the Word is properly preached and the sacraments rightly administered. Wesleyans and Methodists look for the presence of personal and social holiness as the mark of the true church. Believers' churches see the church as the assembly of those who have accepted the call to follow Christ.
At the same time, most Protestants would affirm, with Augustine (and against the Donatists), that the church exists by God's grace, sometimes in spite of human efforts.
Part of the cogency of the Protestant stance is that it recognizes the breadth and mystery of the Spirit's activity. Protestants can acknowledge that the church is present in the many places in which the gospel is preached, Spirit-enabled holiness arises and Christ is followed as Lord. Protestants can recognize all this among our Catholic brethren. Ironically, in this sense Protestants can be more "catholic" than Catholics.
The Protestant conception of church lets no one off the hook. It continually raises questions: Are we true churches? Are we preaching the gospel? Are we following the Lord in the power of the Spirit? Are we preaching good news to the poor? Whenever and wherever these things happen, there is church, and at that we can rejoice.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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Protestants have their own various means of identifying the church in the present state of ecclesial division.
but i think that is part of the problem-not the answer.
This refers to "the" church but in reality it's not 'the' church..it's churches.I don't mean building either.I actually mean as in 'one faith,one baptism'.
Anotherwords faith(as in what we believe)and baptism(and not all even claim it's necessary at all let alone for salvation). So if you do have a disagreement between brethern which church do they take the dispute to?
Realistically can you say "the" church or is it churches?
I've heard this phrase more Catholic than Catholic a lot lately.But the truth is Catholic holds to a certain set of beliefs that we MUST accept (ie authority being top of the list).Those who don't are called dissidents.
So if you begin with the premise "the" church don't you think that's a problem in itself?
I'm not suggesting for one second that no matter what the denomination they are devoid of God's grace and you can't find holiness in the ppl of another denomination.But i also think that Christians would give a more visible,stronger witness to the world if we had the unity Jesus desired and intended.
Christians remain divided over what is necessary for salvation and what Jesus actually taught not about what constitutes church.IMHO that premise is wrong.
You could say that church is what each of us thinks church is.But what is really at the heart,core and foundation of the division is what IS neccesary for salvation and what Jesus actually taught.
God bless,
p4p
Last edited by praying4patience, 8/23/2007, 9:31 pm
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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1. The concept of the Real Presence and the Eucharist is built on fundamental passages from the Gospel and Paul's first letter to the Corinthians.
The words "I am with you always" and other such phrases in the New Testament are not seen in the same light that Roman Catholic Christianity sees it.
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2. Just as it doesn't get into the specifics of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, the Bible also doesn't get into the specifics on the nature of the Trinity and the Incarnation.
Although true, the exact nature of Jesus and Communion (Lord's Supper to others) is not as explicit except for Jesus being with us where two or three are gathered. Thus arguements arise in how much more special the presense ofGod is during that stage of worship.
--- Guilty people wear pumpkins for Landmine Awareness Day.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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The words "I am with you always" and other such phrases in the New Testament are not seen in the same light that Roman Catholic Christianity sees it.
What light are they seen in? BTW.It's Catholicism.Not Roman. I say that to everyone...not picking.
So what you mean there is the Catholic Church interprets them differently?
Fair statement?
Let me ask you this. Sola Scriptura means self interpretation,right? Does that mean the interpretation is correct? If it doesn't mean self interpretation what would you say it means?
As for the Lord's Supper(Eucharist )isn't Jesus saying "THIS IS" very explicit? Especially in light of what He also teaches in John 6? If not,why not?
God bless,
p4p
Last edited by praying4patience, 8/26/2007, 12:29 am
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church Onslow,
You have a knack for finding excellent articles from the non-Catholic side that do a good job of explaining the Catholic POV while not taking offense where none is intended. Thanks for that.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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AndyS333 wrote:
Onslow,
You have a knack for finding excellent articles from the non-Catholic side that do a good job of explaining the Catholic POV while not taking offense where none is intended. Thanks for that.
By Jove, I think they've got it!
I think its just a matter of looking in the right places. I frequently post stuff from The Christian Century (or, its evangelical counterpart, Christianity Today) because they are very good publications and are good places to get a representative Protestant perspecive. Their editors try to be fair and honest, and pick 'expert' contributors, and tell you when they are approaching something from a particular point of view. They also cover important Catholic news issues (to a lesser extent Orthodox).
I think its important that we try and get good information. And, we get better information when we look at reputable sources, who are subject to forms of peer review, real 'experts, not just self-appointed experts, who are trying to be fair: respected publications, theologians, church leaders, etc.... These people are accountable for what they say, and tend to try and get it right. If we want to know about Catholic thinking, we'll get much better information from Cardinal Avery Dulles , or the Archbishop of Canterbury, or a a protestant professor at Yale Divinity School than I will from popular apologists, radio ministers, comic books or people on websites with zero editorial oversight or accountability for what they say.
That's one of my biggest frustrations: its relatively easy to go to good sources, but too many people don't bother, or believe people who tell them what they wan't to hear, or because they heard it on TV or the radio.
Re: Vatican reaffirms the Catholic Church is the one true church
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What light are they seen in?
A light that focuses more on the spiritual presence of God than physical I suppose.
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So what you mean there is the Catholic Church interprets them differently?
Yep
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Let me ask you this. Sola Scriptura means self interpretation,right?
Means the Bible is the highest authority for faith matter and relegates other authorities to lesser substance.
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As for the Lord's Supper(Eucharist )isn't Jesus saying "THIS IS" very explicit? Especially in light of what He also teaches in John 6? If not,why not?
Although I was very poor in Greek, I don't remember the word "this" being any different from the other hundreds of times it is used in the New Testament. Plus in light of the other teachings, I don't find anything that forces me to accept a somewhat-physical view of this passage.
--- Guilty people wear pumpkins for Landmine Awareness Day.
