Re: Who Belongs to the Catholic Church? OK, now for the MOST pressing question: If I am going to be an imperfect member, of which particular Catholic Church should I be an imperfect member? Which rite should I chose to be in defective communion with? The Roman rite? The Chaldean Catholics? The Maronites? Bulgarian Catholic Church? Any recommendations?
But one is not in defective communion or as the Church expresses it, "imperfect communion," with a rite. One is in imperfect Communion, or not in full communion with the Church. All those rites belong to the Catholic Church.
From ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM: Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite
Second Vatican Council
quote:
2. The Holy Catholic Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ, is made up of the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government and who, combining together into various groups which are held together by a hierarchy, form separate Churches or Rites.
As a potential convert, I would image one has the choice. This is what I know if one is born into the Latin rite...one may formally change. However, this is not something to take lightly because once a request for change has been granted and this occurs, one is not permitted to return to the Latin rite. If Cajunrick comes by he may know more about changing rites or how converts choose a rite.
One may attend various rites without being a formal member, however. My local Byzantine rite welcomes all Latin Catholics to worship there.
The document does say ‘Members of Christ’s body’, so I am going to hang my hat on being a member.
I find it misleading to say Protestants are members of the Catholic Church. It is baptism which makes one a member of the Body of Christ and I would certainly not deny that all baptized, Catholic and Protestant, have been incorporated into the Body of Christ by virtue of that very baptism. But to actually be a member of the Catholic Church one has to be fully incorporated. Baptism may unite one to the soul of the Church but that does not constitute membership in the Catholic Church because all the documents state specifically what is required for membership and it is this:
quote:
the faithful who are organically united in the Holy Spirit by the same faith, the same sacraments and the same government....ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM
Being linked to in various ways or united to the soul of the Church does not constitute membership in the Church, which is very much visible.
quote:
that you would say that even though we are members of the Catholic Church, our‘membership’ in the church in a limited or ‘defective’ and is not full.
I would not say you are members of the Catholic Church. I would say that your baptism, which is an element belonging to the Catholic Church, makes you a member of the Body of Christ, and that you are linked to the Church, joined in various ways, and united to the soul of the Church (her invisible element).
quote:
Yes, you are right. There is a strong sense of the local congregation in the concept of Church, running alongside the mystical church
Jeff, why try to prove yourself a member of the Catholic Church when you reject the Catholic Church's definition of Church in favor of the Protestant definition? Why would it matter that Catholics consider you a member when you don't believe in our concept of Church?
If you are in a Protestant denomination, and you fully accept our understanding of Church, you need to convert. If you sincerely believe we are only one among thousands of denominations, why do you need to hang your hat on that quote from Unitatis Redintegratio to be accepted by Catholics as a member of what you would consider another denomination? I do not understand.
Unitatis Redintegration also reads:
quote:
Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life-that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God.
Re: Who Belongs to the Catholic Church? If I may add my two cents.....
I believe there are many who are not Catholic and do not claim to be who are still closer to being in full communion with the Catholic Church than many nominal Catholics who knowingly reject essential Church doctrines.
A Protestant who opposes abortion on demand and who accepts that they are not able to receive communion in a Catholic Church has come closer to a proper discernment of the Body and Blood of Christ than certain pro-abortion "Catholic" politicians who insist on their "right" to the Eucharist.
The Protestant at least has ignorance on his side. The Catholic will have no justification when he stands before his Savior.
Re: Who Belongs to the Catholic Church? Well said Rick! Great points.
Catholic politicians supporting abortion are excellent examples of why claiming to be part of the visible Church alone doesn't mean we're saved. We must remain united with the soul of the Church by rejecting sin and repenting. How much greater will we be judged, who knowingly sin when we have all the means for salvation available to us?
"Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'" CCC, No. 837
Re: Who Belongs to the Catholic Church? Hey, I just had a fun idea: I’ve decided I’m not going to be an imperfect member of the Chaldean rite Catholic Church or the Maronite rite Church or the Bulgarian Catholic Church. I’m thinking it might be much more interesting to be in imperfect communion with Sedevacantist Catholics!
I am thinking of the exciting possibilities to being in a group of Presbyterians who recognizes themselves in imperfect communion with the sedevacantists. We could all get together and do things like:
-Sit around and debate which rite of mass we’re NOT going to attend: the latin or the modern.
- Debate whether Pope Benedict is the Anti-Christ, or whether that office of Anti-Christ has actually been vacant since Pope Pius XII died.
- Think of nasty insults to hurl at modernist Catholics, since they would let just about anyone into heaven, even Presbyterians.
- We will agree that Catholics who are faithful to the Vatican II decrees are heretics. But, we will argue about whether its because 1) Vatican II broke with the historic magisterium, or 2) anyone listening to the council is following ‘the words of men’ instead of the Word of God.
- Go on internet bulletin boards and declare that Cardinal Mahoney is ‘apostate’, because he was seen using a breakable glass pitcher to serve communion. Then, worry that we ourselves are now heretics because we used the word 'apostate' which we can't find anywhere in the King James Bible.
You can sit around debating whether your Eucharist is valid or not and licit or not, and then whether you're condemned for receiving or for not receiving. You can confess your sins to each other in Latin and to the priest in English, and not offend your Presbyterian brethren because he can't give you valid absolution anyway. The possibilities are endless!
You might even end up like that Internet church in Baton Rouge and pray to a statue of Saint Elvis!
Which rite should I chose to be in defective communion with? The Roman rite? The Chaldean Catholics? The Maronites? Bulgarian Catholic Church? Any recommendations?
could all get together and do things like:
???
