Culpability I had a rather interesting evening discussing an idea I had, -- or perhaps someone else had but somehow it landed up coming out of my mouth. -- And it was not well received by anyone.
I've had an idea with regard to universal responsibility in general, for everything.
The way I see it, everyone is always trying to blame the other. Catholics did this, Protestants did that, the Jews and the Muslims caused more than their fair share of this, that, or the other.
----I have since discovered this particular idea about to be discussed, is very unpopular and perhaps I'm completely off base for propagating it. I'm not necessarily sure its Catholic teaching, but it sits well with me what ever the case, or where ever it came from.
Here Goes:
The Gospel narratives, (to make a long story short) depending on which you read describe either "the crowd" or "the Jews" ultimately demanding--- "crucify him!" "crucify him."
Earlier this evening, a young Catholic with whom I was talking, upon hearing my thoughts about our continued "culpability" with regard to the crucifixion of Christ felt that the narrative described an event reflective of the time and place that in no way involved "us" anymore. It was an historical event that we, having not been there, could/should not be held accountable for. We didn't do it. This somehow seemed naive to me.
What was my Point? (he said)
My thought was that we were/are "that crowd" and are thus as completely responsible as those who were actually there at the time calling for crucifixion. It would have been us, thus we share equally in the culpability for the crucifixion of our Lord. Had we been in that crowd, we too would have been calling for crucifixion.
The young Catholic said he hadn't thought of it that way, I may have a point, however he couldn't see any real purpose in my argument. In fact, why was I even bringing it up as a point of discussion?
An evangelical Lutheran I spoke to later was appalled at this idea, as Christ's death completely absolved us from our sin and thus no culpability remained. Therefore, I was reading too literally and missing the point that our sin was forgiven. My "literal" reading and accompanying Catholic guilt typical of what we are taught obscured the redemptive power of Christ's sacrifice and as such diminished his purpose in salvation history. (My bad)
My thought involved neither salvation or redemption. My point suggests our universal culpability in almost everything that goes wrong with the world. The Crucifixion of Christ being a pivotal and major example. That was my only point.
The opposition was strongest from the evangelical Lutheran whose father was a minister and claimed my thought was so absurd it was not even worth discussing with her dad. She seemed surprisingly angered by the idea.
I don't find this thought to be either very original nor do I find it as offensive as it was taken.
Any ideas here. Am I completely off base? (probably)
For me, I think some of this personal obsession started years back as an argument against antisemitism but then has rightly expanded to humanity in general.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts if any.
Jim
PS
My point was that of course our sin, the sin of mankind was forgiven, but we continue to be culpable because we never stop at some level crucifying our lord.
Both of my friends think I have this completely wrong though the young Catholic seemed to understand my idea but was disturbed and somewhat unwilling to buy in to it. My Lutheran friend sees the idea as completely misguided.
I realize I'm asking for my head on a plate, but am I completely off base here?
Re: Culpability Maybe I really was hanging on to my Catholic upbringing in a distant form all along. I remember my days away, once a month communion with a broken piece of Matzo and the little glass of juice. I remember before each communion the pastor did say any sin we have to bring that to God. I also remember reading how we're changed in an instant as in once we've accepted Jesus as our Lord and savior... but I had a hard time with that because what was meant by 'work out your own salvation'... I mean, if accepting Jesus as my Lord and Savior changed me in an instant NOW what did I have to 'work out' by that thinking?
I'd have to hunt for 'changed in an instant', probably in Revelation. But this too...
2 Corinthians 5:14-17 KJVA
(14) For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
(15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
(16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
(17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
or
2 Corinthians 5:14-17 DRB
(14) For the charity of Christ presseth us: judging this, that if one died for all, then all were dead.
(15) And Christ died for all: that they also who live may not now live to themselves, but unto him who died for them and rose again.
(16) Wherefore henceforth, we know no man according to the flesh. And if we have known Christ according to the flesh: but now we know him so no longer.
(17) If then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away. Behold all things are made new.
It's still a process, still a walk, that doesn't contradict these verses...
I'm still kicking myself in the pants because of how anti-Catholic I had gotten and again, not all Protestants are like that. It was two Protestant friends of mine, one gave me the link on anti-Catholicism (on Catholic Answers no less) and the other warned me about the Chick books... I sooooo ate all that up before. Out of context I guess one could take these verses to mean NOW all the old has passed away. Yet why does it also say we're running the race?
because it's a walk, a journey... I still have issues getting worked out of me not having to do with any of this. I keep digging for truth and my digging on an meandering path for a time confused things for me but I keep praying on this all.
___
Here's the verses;
Philippians 2:9-12 DRB
(9) For which cause, God also hath exalted him and hath given him a name which is above all names:
(10) That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:
(11) And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.
(12) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Why are we told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling if we're changed in an instant NOW... we will be yes... but as we're getting there ... no contradictions, it's a process.
Last edited by HasahZ, 10/6/2007, 11:12 pm
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
Re: Culpability I didn't quite wrap up my thoughts... since it was sin that ultimately sent Jesus to the cross, and I have sinned, and as horrific as what He endured for me was... yes, I would've been part of that crowd either directly or indirectly. It was sin that put Him there.
It's been just about 20 yrs since my last Holy Week in a Catholic Church as well but wasn't that even part of the readings on Good Friday... didn't we respond with "Crucify him"?
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
You have most of the thought right, and it is part of our teaching. Where the Protestants fall short on the understanding explains why Sacred Tradition and Teaching is so important. They tend to focus on the salvation effort of the Cross, instead of the redeeming effort.
First of all, according to Catholic teaching, we are REDEEMED by the Crucifixion. Our saving comes from accepting that truth.
You will never lose your redemption, but you CAN LOSE your SALVATION if you choose to sin against God bad enough to merit Hell.
Hope I still have you at this point...
The redemptive act of the crucifixion is continuous throughout ALL time. It extends to all people at anytime in creation, from Adam and Eve forward. Those born prior to the Crucifixion had to wait for Christ, the rest of us do not. In the end we all have the same chance of getting to heaven.
This is why we say at the Mass that this is the Eternal Sacrifice, because the redemptive act was not just for those who lived back then... it moves forward into the future like a wave moving through water, and at some point in time will be revealed to all people.
So skipping through invincible ignorance, and gravitational time flows, we can get to the crux of the problem... were we there in some way hollering "Crucify Him!"
Yeah.
We do it with every action of sin we commit to. Remember, He took ALL of our sin upon Him. Past, present, and future. So everytime we sin, we added to whatever it was He took before, during and after He was nailed to the Cross. All of it. Including sins that were not done yet.
So basically, in our understanding, when we sin we are saying "No, Jesus" or "I don't want to do it your way, I want it my way..." and if your were to take all the sins you have done in your life time, and hear your voices saying "No..." or "I don't want to..." in a loud roar, you may sound more like a crowd of people screaming "Crucify Him!!"
So, yes, we are culpable through our own sins for what happened on the cross almost 2000 years ago.
My arguments with the other line of thinking, stems with the ideas that we are not responsible somehow, because the Crucifixion took care of all that. It did not. It only opened up the Gate of Heaven that was closed to us through sin. We needed to be saved. Our sin merits death. Mortal sin still merits death even today. Think of it from that point. Mortal sin (Un forgiven) breaks the connection between you and God because of a deliberate choice to turn from God. Until you apologize and ask for forgiveness, you merit eternal damnation. You sure as heck don't merit heaven with that action!
Nothing that happened on the Cross stops you from deliberately turning on God. It only allowed you a way back into His Life, if you ask for it. That is why we have to ask for it. That is why most Protestants say they openly profess Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. So do we, at every Mass. This is also why the Once Saved Always Saved idea doesn't hold up. It should be Once Redeemed Always Redeemed with the understanding that salvation is a work in progress.
My thought was that we were/are "that crowd" and are thus as completely responsible as those who were actually there at the time calling for crucifixion. It would have been us, thus we share equally in the culpability for the crucifixion of our Lord. Had we been in that crowd, we too would have been calling for crucifixion.
IMHO, I don't think we are equally culpable for the crucifixion of our Lord as those who are then present at that time. And the culpability of the people at that time is not at all an issue for as Christ has said on the cross they know not what they are doing. By the very words of our Lord the people of that time are not really that culpable for the reason of ignorance and lack of knowledge about the Messiah. Only then at the Resurrection and at the preaching of the Apostles are new converts realized their culpability for crucifying the Messiah-there Savior. So IMHO people of that time are culpable only for crucifying a Good man as they said it that time. Only those who knows and perceive that Christ is the Messiah are more culpable for the crucifixion due to their cowardice, as what had happen to Peter. So maybe we are culpable as modern day Christians for the continued crucifixion of our Lord not in a direct physical terms but more of spiritually and indirectly as what had happened on the road to Damascus to the man named Saul where Christ our Lord said. "Saul, why are you persecuting me." For if we depart from the Divine Love with which we are aware of as Christians then IMHO we are more culpable for causing pain and sorrow to the Heart of God for He desires us to be save. God bless
My continuous tendency to examine my motives and wonder what I would do in situations in which I've never been tested, leads me to suspect a worse case scenario.
Knowing what I know today would cause me to follow Christ. I don't know if my ears and eyes would have been open at that time. I've been resistant before and my faith continues to be a bit slippery.
I think that's what draws me toward a conclusion of universal culpability. Since I can't know what humankind or I would have done, I assume the likely position of guilt.
Mankind has shown itself to be quite predictable when it comes to making the wrong choice.
I also willingly accept the possibility and hope of redemption.
Thanks to all for your responses; they have been very helpful. I'm not quite sure what got me on this subject even on the night of the conversation.
