Scriptures and Mary what all can we find in scripture about Mary and how does it relate to Catholic dogma?Basically asking;where is THAT in scripture? We get asked that all the time.
GB!~
p4p
I think this is a great topic, but there is one thing we should keep in mind as we discuss and study. Marian dogmas are not based solely on Scripture exegesis and some (like the Assumption of Mary) have very little explicit Scriptural support (if any). Marian dogmas are also based on what God has revealed in Sacred Tradition.
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
Maybe I shouldn't have posted in this part! So this is referring to being born without sin correct even though she did imply she needed a Savior.
(I'm sorry, one again probably posted where I shouldn't have)
Last edited by HasahZ, 6/3/2007, 4:43 pm
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
You are a member of our "family" here so feel free to post wherever you wish.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're making the point that if Mary was indeed "born without sin" that it appears to contradict Mary needing a Saviour (just like all of us do).
First of all, the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was indeed saved by Christ. The teaching about the Immaculate Conception simply means that she was saved before Christ's death and resurrection in time by God, in anticipation of her being Christ's mother. God chose her from the very beginning of her existence for His plan.
Another way of looking at the Immaculate Conception is that Mary was born without the defect that all other humans are born with. In other words, she wasn't born with the lack of sanctifying grace that we are all born into. God, in anticipation of her being the mother of His Son gave her that gift at the moment of her creation by Him. This is the gift we receive in Baptism.
The bottom line is that Mary is saved by Christ, as we all are. But she was saved at a different moment in her creation by Him than the rest of us. She was saved at the very beginning of her life, where the rest of us are normally saved (spiritually born again) after physical birth.
That's the teaching as I understand it. Now we can discuss the Scriptural and Traditional support for this teaching, if you'd like.
Re: Scriptures and Mary Scriptural support would help, I never really studied the Bible as a Catholic until the off campus fellowship... and already posted that. After 2003 I really got into it, hungered it. I'm at an AoG church now, Sunday services are an hour & a half. Adult Bible class an hour before that though a lot of times we're studying someone's book about the Bible and I'd rather be looking at scripture w/out someone's interpretation... then again, maybe I'm still approaching things wrong. We did study church history some, via a woman who came from a Lutheran upbringing.
I do better hearing so I bought iLumina Gold software back then, Pradis by Zondervan and a MP3 Bible... I know I can't blame the RCC for my being clueless before.
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adding of course I have eSword now too, can 'listen' to that w/ the text to speech reader... cordless headphones... hehe.. just call me geek. I downloaded the KJVA which has the 7 books the Protestant Bible doesn't have... have bought a few versions and other collections there too.
Last edited by HasahZ, 6/5/2007, 9:59 am
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
So this is referring to being born without sin correct even though she did imply she needed a Savior.
Suppose you see a child talking to a stranger and start to get into his car. He turns out to be a molester who will hurt and maybe even kill the child.
You can report it to the police. They can search for the child and (hopefully) find him. He can go to the emergency room and be treated for any physical injury, and spend years in therapy to treat any emotional damage. You have "saved" the child by helping to heal the damage that was done.
Or you can run up to the car and tell the child to get out, then fuss at him for getting into the stranger's car.
In one case, you have "saved" the child by healing the damage. Jesus heals us by forgiving our sins and helping us to heal the damage that was done.
Or you can "save" the child by preventing the damage in the first place. The child ends up healthier and happier.
Are you any less a savior in the second case?
Jesus saved Mary. He just did it before the fact rather than after. If anything , he saved her more effectively than he saved us, because she did not suffer from the damage of sin. Of course, she never rejected him. We reject him constantly.
Re: Scriptures and Mary Great explanation CajunRick. I like that better than other explanations I've heard.
Hasahz,
Maybe we should start at one of the first verses we find about the Blessed Virgin Mary. Let's look at Luke 1:28.
The angel greets Mary with a term that sounds more like a title or a name.
"Greetings highly favored one" (most modern translations)
Also translated as "Hail, full of grace." (Dhouy-Rheims and RSV-CE).
There is a Greek word that is translated as "highly favored" or better yet, "full of grace".
One question to ask ourselves is, what exactly does it mean to be "full of grace" or "highly favored?"
The Greek word (Charitoo) used by the angel of God to describe Mary has a very special meaning and is only used one other time in the New Testament (Eph 1:6).
I recommend reading, praying, and meditating on Luke 1:28 and especially on Luke 1:26-38.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're making the point that if Mary was indeed "born without sin" that it appears to contradict Mary needing a Saviour (just like all of us do).
I've messed up with these words before butI hope I don't sound (read) like I'm trying to debate again, I'm not, it's too much like arguing and well... not trying to make a point but asking for clarification, for my own understanding... someone that is re-looking at a lot of things and trying to forget about all the anti-Catholic stuff that was feeding my vendetta. I was so convinced of it all before.
I have been going through a Bible study at church which kind of was sidetracked when I started school and the interesting fun after two lay-offs etc. Like we had the whole lesson on baptism and per scripture at the time it seemed to make more sense to be baptized after having fully made a commitment to Jesus. I'm rethinking a lot... I was always seeking after God when I was a kid but we had all the other junk going on. Since I entertained all that stuff I saw at home like ghost stories, etc... I really dont' think I knew Him back then... more just knowing about Him, looking but hanging on to worldly deceptions... in other words I was a seeking pew warmer.... my own fault.
I also listened to those links... been still going through the anti-Catholic section & found a little series in EWTN on the Beatitudes...
quote:
The Greek word (Charitoo) used by the angel of God to describe Mary has a very special meaning and is only used one other time in the New Testament (Eph 1:6).
I recommend reading, praying, and meditating on Luke 1:28 and especially on Luke 1:26-38.
I'll check through those
& thanks Cajun Rick
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and adding, understand that let's see, the 70's to mid 80's typical viewing a lot of Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, Late Great Planet Earth which gave me nightmares for a week... I was a kid.. wasn't kid viewing... the other movies that came out in those years... tried to mix that all with God and it wasn't working... then hearing about a theology course that was teaching the Bible had a lot analogy (specifically referring to things like the flood etc)... and if that was the case, which was analogy and which wasn't? It was just confusing.
Last edited by HasahZ, 6/6/2007, 1:51 pm
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
God chose her from the very beginning of her existence for His plan.
yep.Check Genesis.
But let's also remember that Christ died for our sins before we committed them-so how impossible would it be for Mary to be saved ahead of time rather than after?
No one sinless? Let's recall too that Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence-without sin. when they were created.So we can say Adam and Eve were sinless.Until the fall anyway.
If any of us were able to create our own mother i know i would want my mother to be sinless.Jesus created His own mother and He was God so i am POSITIVE He was capable of creating her sinless at conception.
And being Jesus i am sure He would.Do you think Jesus would chance His own mother who by her fiat brought man redemption would even consider the possibility of her going to hell? I don't think so!
Besides Genesis says God placed enmity between her & Satan.She could not then have even one taint of sin for even one second!
GB!~
p4p
Re: Scriptures and Mary You all do know you're making my head spin don't you??? But it makes sense. I still think I need to hide in a closet somewhere.
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
