Beatification/Canonization;how soon? A CONVERSATION WITH MSGR. ODER, THE POSTULATOR OF JOHN PAUL’S CAUSE FOR BEATIFICATION
We have now arrived at the moment where I say, “And if you are still with me…..” And I hope the answer is ‘yes’ and that you have a cup of piping hot coffee in front of you (or tea, if you are fascinated by all things Chinese), for I have a very special conversation to share with you. On March 30, I spent a delightful morning at the Vicariate of Rome where I interviewed Polish-born Msgr. Slawomir Oder, postulator for the cause of the beatification of John Paul II, but whose full time job is as a judge in the vicariate tribunal that decides cases of nullity for marriages.
For an hour we talked of saints, the saintly and the making of saints.
Today, as it has been for two millennia, those who die for their faith – martyrs – achieve sainthood by giving their life. And for many centuries, those who were not martyrs, but were seen as having lived heroically virtuous lives, were acclaimed by the people as saints – vox popoli, the ‘voice of the people’.
If vox popli was still the rule, Pope John Paul would have been proclaimed a saint the day of his funeral. Throughout much of the solemn and moving funeral Mass for the deceased pontiff on April 8, 2005, people by the thousands chanted or held up banners proclaiming santo subito! - make him a saint immediately!
However, today there is a strict process for a cause of beatification or canonization, and the hand that guides this procedure belongs to the postulator. In the cause for beatification of Pope John Paul II, the postulator is Msgr. Slawomir Oder, born in Chelmza, Poland in August 1960, and ordained to the priesthood in 1989. He has been in Rome over 21 years.
EWTN: Tell us about your years in Rome.
ODER: I came to Rome in 1984 when I was 24 and a seminarian. I was in the seminary for two years in Poland, and then my bishop sent me to the Major Roman Seminary where I studied philosophy and theology. I was ordained for the diocese of Torun on May 14, 1989 but remained here for several years at the seminary as an educator. The vicar of Rome at that time, Cardinal Ugo Poletti, asked my bishop if I could stay on. I worked at the juridical office, and since September 2001 have been a judicial vicar at the Appellate Tribunal.
EWTN: Were you assigned the cause of John Paul because you are Polish you and could thus read and communicate in that language, so essential to the case?
ODER: I can only guess the reason because when the cardinal asked me to be postulator, he did not give me any explanation. For me it was a great honor, a great joy but it also terrified me in a way because anyone who had ever met John Paul knew they were in the presence of a giant – really a giant, therefore intimidating. It was also intimidating because this cause has drawn such universal interest, right from the start. So, in front of you there is a giant, and behind you, the breath of the people down your neck, asking “when? when?” and urging you to go forward. One can almost feel crushed by this reality.
EWTN: You have said there are many, many testimonials that have arrived, and continue to come to your office, from people around the world. This must require many people here who have to read everything, and in many languages.
ODER: Absolutely, it is clear.
EWTN: What do most people write about? Their friendship with Pope John Paul, their memories, favors received …..?
ODER: Almost exclusively about favors, or as we say, graces received. (Note to readers: when you visit shrines in Italy, you will invariably find countless sterling silver votives, in various shapes, hung on walls, adorning altars or placed wherever there is room, engraved with PGR. Those letters stand for Per Grazie Ricevute - “For Favors Received.”
EWTN: As I prepared questions to ask you, I wondered if this was not the first such cause – at least of a well known person – where e-mail played a role in bringing these testimonials, these letters witnessing to love and esteem and favors received.
ODER: A very interesting thought, it’s probably true. I am not totally certain but at least for well-known causes, this is probably precedent-setting.
EWTN: Perhaps e-mail was involved with Mother Teresa’s cause for that was already the era of e-mail and the Internet. I can imagine this greatly facilitates your work.
ODER: Indeed. The letters that have arrived via e-mail are (and he went to a computer file): in English, 400; Italian, 500; Polish, 400; Portuguese, 200, Spanish, 1,000, French, about 100. If you add to this the letters that arrive by normal mail, we have about 4,000 such testimonials.
EWTN: What is the Latin root of postulator, the position you occupy?
ODER: To propose – to bring a proposal forward, asking something in return. The postulator is the one who proposes, in the name of the ‘actor’ of the cause, the candidate to be saint. In this case, the diocese of Rome is what we call the ‘actor’ of the cause. The ‘actor’ can be an institute, a religious congregation, a diocese, the hierarchy of the Church, or better, the central institution of the Church – that puts forth the name of a candidate for sainthood to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints.
EWTN: So, in a sense, “you (postulator) propose, they (congregation) dispose.” What is the procedure in a cause for beatification?
ODER: One of a bishop’s duties is to be alert for those who during their life have earned a reputation for sanctity and if, after their death, within the soul of the faithful there remains an awareness of the extraordinary nature of the life of the person. Consideration of the person’s holiness is expressed in very concrete ways: For example, people start praying to the person after their death, asking their intercession, or visiting their tomb and placing flowers on it.
Several days ago I was in Romania and the bishop brought us to the tombs of several bishop martyrs during the time of communism and the tombs, in the midst of winter grayness, were all covered with flowers – signs of veneration by the people, and signs that a bishop must recognize and receive.
If then, as a result of such signs of recognition of holiness and veneration, a group of persons that is interested in promoting the recognition of holiness in an official way, then the bishop starts the process at the diocesan level. This is the second stage. The first is establishing the reputation for holiness.
John Paul’s cause was opened at the diocesan level on 28, 2005. At this point, witnesses are gathered, written and in person, and all the documentation of his life is gathered – that person’s writings, etc. This is all first hand material, and comprises the third stage.
Then the Congregation prepares the positio, the compilation of all the material that has been gathered and the presentation of the proofs that the candidate effectively lived in such a way that they exercised human and Christian virtues in a heroic manner. We have to show heroicness of virtues.
EWTN: Some have criticized John Paul for making too many saints, and they have asked about the undoubtedly greater numbers of holy and saintly people who are never formally canonized. Are they really also saints?
ODER: A process does not have a constitutive character. For example, in a canonization ceremony, the person proclaimed by the pope in a decree does not become a saint in that moment: they lived saintly lives and the ceremony is a public recognition. St. Paul said: “You are saints by vocation.” It is written in our baptism. The Christian is called to be a saint. You are either Christian, really and truly and entirely, and a saint, or you are not saintly and therefore, not Christian.
I think that John Paul II placed such insistence on this and yes, saints did abound in his pontificate and some took him to task for that – but he wanted to say that although holiness is not something easy, it is reachable, possible. The ordinary can be lived in an extraordinary way by every Christian.
And you are right when you speak of non-canonized saints. It is absolutely true. I’ve known - and now know – and you mentioned your grandmother - many who are saintly in their lives. Pope John Paul had a desire to give us saintly models. In fact, he was tenacious about this and he made the congregation work hard to seek models, and especially lay people, those to whom the average person could relate.
The Pope’s message to us through numerous beatifications was theological, referring to man’s vocation which finds its fullness in God. Holiness truly opens man to the prospect of eternal life, communion with God, the scope of our lives. God did not place us in the world by mistake or as a joke or caprice – rather He creates us and calls us to communion with him. And holiness is this: being called to communion with God. Living on earth in difficult situations, and then in heaven living life in its fullness.
These beatifications were also a message of great hope, hope for every single person. If I tell you that you are called to holiness, you have the potential for holiness within you. You can be a saint – you don’t have to live in the grayness of everyday life, used to the mediocrity of the world. God called you to be saintly. If the Pope sometimes placed before us a very high standards, it was because he had faith in us. “If I ask you, it is because you are capable of doing it.”
EWTN: In a way it is similar to becoming an Olympic champion. The athlete sets a very high standard for himself and, through tenacity and discipline and hard work and sacrifice, achieves that goal. So can we, if we train.
ODER: For me, the holiness proposed by John Paul was truly something wonderful, a beautiful, Christian humanism, a perspective of man that was exalting. When he told us we could be saints, when he told us to be demanding with ourselves, to ask things of ourselves that others would not ask, it was this great trust, this confidence that he had in our regards.
EWTN: You could feel this with Pope John Paul. Just as a father wants his children to do well, you knew that John Paul wanted you to do well, to be holy.
ODER: In fact, he was very paternal.
EWTN: Back to the beatification process: Have we completed the procedural steps?
ODER: We got to the ‘positio’ prepared by the postulator and then placed in the hands of experts at the Congregation. Theologians, historians, cardinals, bishops, then study the ‘positio’, express their opinion and, at the end, if all is positive, the Holy Father signs the decree.
EWTN: Is a miracle part of the ‘positio’?
ODER: No, it’s separate. In fact, we work on two procedural pillars: the diocesan level of witnesses, etc. and the part regarding a miracle. This is a parallel process and takes place at both the diocesan level and at the congregation. On March 17 we opened the process on the miracle for John Paul II.
EWTN: The reported miracle involving a French nun?
ODER: Yes, a nun in her forties who had symptoms, rather prematurely, of Parkinson’s disease
EWTN: At what point is this investigation?
ODER: This nun began to show symptoms of Parkinson’s - the same illness that John Paul had – in the year 2000. They worsened over time, with a very notable worsening during the last days and hours of John Paul II. This religious, a nurse, decided to ask her superior to no longer send her to work. For her this was a drama because her entire life was oriented to this service. So she placed herself in the hands of her superior, whom I met and liked very much. She is a woman of great faith, strong, tenacious. She told the nun she must not give up but continue to believe and to pray. The day of John Paul’s death, the superior immediately proposed praying for his intercession, and the entire institute prayed a novena for this nun.
The very moving and beautiful part is that, exactly two months after John Paul’s death, the night of April 1-2, this nun noted that the symptoms had disappeared.
EWTN: Who makes the call that this is a work of God, not man, therefore a miracle?
ODER: It is up to me as postulator to make a discernment. Naturally, it is an early discernment. When I received this letter, this indication of a healing, it did not come from the nun herself but from her superior, and this is what struck me: I had gotten to know the institute, the community and was edified by what I saw. This institute takes great care for the liturgy, has a wonderful spirit of service, fraternal love, lives an intense prayer life. I was edified by their sense of obedience, of humility. In her letter, the superior presented the situation in a very delicate and objective manner. But for me it was not only what she said but how she said it. The case seemed very interesting. We asked for documentation, we had this case studied by experts and doctors, and we were very encouraged by what happened, the way in which the symptoms disappeared. There was no human explanation.
EWTN: In the case of a medical miracle, one requiring testimony from a doctor, do you have you own expert doctors who are called into the case?
ODER: No, the preliminary examination requires an expert in the matter, a doctor who gives an objective opinion. The congregation has its own method, its experts. In this case, from a medically scientific point of view based on existing documentation, the case cannot be humanly explained. Encouraged by this, I got in touch with the local bishop and gave him everything, all the documentation, etc., and he did his own investigations, using other doctors, and their opinions were very encouraging. At this point I presented a formal request to open a diocesan level inquest into the miracle. This is what started on March 17.
The tribunal that has been set up must gather witnesses, documentation and listen to the doctors who took care of the nun, to also verify her current state of health because she must, of course, for a miracle to have happened, remain healed. All this documentation, once gathered, will go to the Congregation where a commission of theologians and doctors will study the case. Why doctors? They have to give a technical opinion from a medical standpoint: the symptoms present at the time, the reconstruction of the illness, the disappearance of the symptoms and her current state. Why theologians? It is important that a healing take place in direct relation to the intercession of the Servant of God – and this must be established – this causality - between prayer and effect – the healing.
EWTN: Can you say at what stage we are for the miracle?
ODER; This is difficult to say because the process was only opened March 17 – two weeks ago. They have to listen to witnesses, etc. Surely, however, it will not be a real long process.
EWTN: I read reports of an alleged miracle in the United States.
ODER: I must say that we receive many signs of favors received from the United States – really quite a number. Yes, yes. And some cases seem very, very interesting to me. There is one case concerning, for example, healing of Hepatitis C , something that just doesn’t happen.
EWTN: It is interesting that the most publicized miracle at this point happened in France, the “eldest daughter” of the Church, where Mass attendance is low and society seems to be de-christianized.
ODER: I am convinced that these things do not happen casually. In all of this there is the design of Divine Providence
EWTN: Cardinal Ruini, vicar of Rome, said in an interview after the March 23 consistory with the Pope and College of Cardinals: “I trust that the diocesan phase of the process of beatification of John Paul II will end soon.”
ODER: He was linked to John Paul by such a close bond – more than an institutional bond – so surely these words express his own desire.
EWTN: Have there been testimonials for favors received from other faiths or other countries?
ODER: Indeed. One case concerns an Anglican gentleman from England who suffered from unspecified pains that prevented him from walking. One night he dreamed of the Holy Father and the next morning when he awoke, he no longer had any pain and he could walk. He went to his doctor who told him you had better write to Rome. It seems his doctor was Catholic. In any case, we also received this testimonial. We also have a case from Russia – an Orthodox – a very beautiful sign. There are people who write who are Orthodox, but these are people who know the Pope’s holiness and who have received favors, graces through his intercession.
EWTN: Wouldn’t it be incredible if the Christian unity so desired by John Paul in life, was jump-started in a way by a miracle after his death?
ODER: In this, too, I truly see a design of Divine Providence. I can also say that some of the favors received from that world, not necessarily from the Orthodox, but from Russia, are truly very interesting. And I will tell you more. As you know we are preparing Totus Tuus, this magazine with updates on the beatification process. Initially we decided to do four languages. However, we started received witnesses from Russia, from China. In China there is a woman afflicted with a lung problem, a Chinese woman from Hong King, who asked John Paul to intercede. So we are broadening our horizons .
I spoke to China’s Cardinal Zen from Hong Kong, told him about our initiative and he said: “Courage, China needs this!”
And I can add here that we have received an incredible number of requests from people in the United States who want to receive this publication. It’s truly amazing..
EWTN: Are there things not considered miracles?
ODER: Indeed. Passing an exam, getting a driver’s license, having nice weather for a wedding or obtaining peace because of prayer to someone.
EWTN: I cannot imagine the emotions you are experiencing.
ODER: It’s true. Extraordinary, it’s the adventure of a life. I was in St. Peter’s Square when the Pope died. I knelt and prayed like everyone there. I have to tell you that I lived an experience of the resurrection. I felt it was a moment of transition, passing through the door of death but generating life. In that moment of sadness for the heart, there was that applause in the square – which I had to explain, by the way, to my friends in Poland. They were scandalized at people clapping at the Pope’s death. I had to explain how things are done in Italy, adding that it was also an emotional release. It was an applause for life - the life of John Paul II – to the life he was beginning.
For me it was a moment of agony but also an experience of resurrection. I felt the Church living a strong transcendental experience, of eternal life opening up. It was so palpable. And I can’t hide that there, at that moment when I was kneeling, I thought, “Dear Holy Father, John Paul II, I entrust the following to you – and I made quite a list of things and people. Now, as you are about to cross the threshold of eternity, carry these things in your heart.”
As a priest I have never been able to say Mass for the repose of the soul of John Paul, I just can’t. I can pray for his intercession. I can’t pray for the repose of his soul because for me he is a saint. How do you say a Mass for a saint?
Msgr. Oder and I ended our conversation with our personal memories and reflections on that immensely sad, and yet immensely great, unique, history-making period we lived through last April, a period that, as I write these words, the Church, Rome and the world are preparing to re-live and commemorate in a thousand ways.
To visit the Diocese of Rome website for the Cause of Beatification for Pope John Paul, click here:
Re: Beatification/Canonization;how soon? Somewhere, probably in an old bedroom, I had one of the medals with JPII on one side and Our Lady of Częstochowa on the other side.
How did they say it? Jan Paweł Drugie (II)
--- ...Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.
Amen
