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3st2jje6
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Do I Still need to breed for production?
I milk five hundred cows and just hit the 10000 milestone, all well and good but its type that has causes me most problems.
On three time a day milking, full tmr housed 365days the cow has to able to stand the system. Easy managed cows are what I need.
I have been breeding with a total type bias for the last couple of years and have extensively used GIBSON in the last year. Having ironed some of the type defects particlarly rump angle, I am a little concerned about the fact that bulls such as gibson wont produce ofspring with natural milking ability. I would welcome some advice if possible thankyou.
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16/9/2003, 15:51
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Big Bird
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Type and production are not mutually exclusive, it's how you blend them to make them work for you.
There are plenty of high type bulls with good production figures. Gibson probably wouldn't be regarded as one of them, although I am using him here.
What about Aaron, or maybe Convincer if the CVM doesn't worry you.
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16/9/2003, 17:25
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IndiesViewGD
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
The old saying goes you don't breed for milk you feed for it. If your cows have a proper diet and plenty to eat they should milk if they are fed right so breed for type and feed for milk it's that simple.
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17/9/2003, 3:01
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mckeague
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Markday wrote:
You may as well continue breeding your poorer cows to a bull like Gibson but then move onto something else for the next generation.
quote:
Would you want to be keeping your replacements from your poorer cows???? Surely he should be breeding his better cows to improve his type further, he may lose a little production but if this is a natural milk herd one cross of type shouldn't do much harm and i would also have to agree with IndiesViewGD that you could feed for production.
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17/9/2003, 7:53
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mckeague
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
This could get interesting.........
we wait with baited breath!!!!
Assumptions can be dangerous!!!
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17/9/2003, 11:01
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Will Richardson
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
This therefore shows the positive correlation between index and actually output of an animal which is directly related to profit. It also dissmisses the theory that breeding for type and milk will follow .... where's it following ...??? 4 generations further on ???? Sorry but we need it now to pay the bills.
To me it also chucks out the long held belief by certain sections of the industry that you cant have high milk yields and high type together... animals of this high genetic potential not infact dropping to bits, but going on to produce high yields in more lactations without losing type.
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17/9/2003, 17:40
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3st2jje6
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
The assumptions are interesting.
Butterfat is fine.
The herd has been doulbled from 250 to 500 and the new cows has been sourced at a price from everywhere some good some bad and some now culled. Alot of these cows are totally commercial bought from poorly managed farms and with the right diet and lots of foot trimming have really performed well.
As there is a shortage of heifers due to the expansion everything is served to the holstein bull apart from multiple repeats.
Already milking lots of Aarons, hes done a great job as has convincer,capri etc.
What I can tell from the comments thus far is to take a balanced approach to sire selection?
Last edited by 3st2jje6 (Local user), 17/9/2003, 21:01
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17/9/2003, 20:57
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Big Bird
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Mark, just to be a complete pain in the ****, be interesting to know what the PIN of these heifers are.
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17/9/2003, 21:11
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mckeague
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Just out of interest Mark are they all in-calf again?
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23/9/2003, 8:04
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mckeague
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Your obviously doing something right, though i don't want to give you a big head - i hope you got Blue bulls out of them!!!!! Though the blue heifers may run them close for yield!!!!!!!!
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25/9/2003, 7:57
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Big Bird
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Sound like a good group of heifers, thanks for the info.
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25/9/2003, 19:34
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simon powell
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Mark,
Won't their first lactation yields have had a "HUGE" effect on these heifers current PIN indexs?
Your implication is that, almost without exception, the higher the index, the higher the yield. Bit of a loaded dice don't you think? When these PIN values have been formulated including their first lactation information.
If in fact the predicted PIN of these animals before they began to produce, correlates to their heifer yields, then your case is proven....................................for heifers!!!!!!!!!
Interesting to compare relative yield at say, third lactation? Also which ones remain and which ones don't!!!!!!!!!
Some I notice have a little "Mountain" in the pedigree. Whilst I am aware that you are very pleased with them, I can't help wondering whether he may come back to haunt you later in their lives!!!!
On the topic of production, Heifers giving in excess of 900KG F+P is awesome!!!!! You describe your system as "simple", but it's obviously effective!!!!!
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28/9/2003, 16:00
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MarkDay
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Simon, please allow me to quote myself!
quote:
Don't forget that these heifers have completed their first lactations therefore their £Pins will have been influenced by that.I do remember though that the Integrity Annabelle had the lowest predicted £Pin so it is interesting that she lived up to expectations!
My initial point was that every animal has a different potential for yeild,whether the Pin index is an accurate indicator is open to debate and I would only ever use Pin as an interesting guide.Over a large number of animals I'm sure Pin is fairly accurate but in individual cases it can turn out to be utter rubbish-much the same as a type index.
If it's any consolation to you Simon,I could tell you virtually every classification of any animal in our herd but there would be very few I could tell you the Pin of!!!
The fact that Addison Steffie is the 7th generation VG or excellent is also just as important to me as the fact she has a pin of £95
I only looked up the Pin's of these heifers after being asked to do so!
Having used such a variety of bulls over the years it is clear to me that daughters of high milk bulls will milk better than daughters of low milk bulls (as an average) Otherwise there would be absolutly no point in having production proofs for bulls at all!
So the statement "breed for type and feed for milk " is nothing more than a weak get out clause for those that have neglected production to further their chances of breeding a show cow.
As for comparing yeilds of this group of heifers after third lactaion,well yes that would be a good test,and I'm sure there may be a re ranking, but as for lifetime yeild, the low yeilding heifers will never catch up.
I do not believe in just blindly putting index on index that will not work! However there is no reason why you can't use high production bulls on high index cows who's type complement each other.This will produce a high yeilding heifer that has the functional traits to survive long enough to give 5000-7000 kg life time Fat and Protien.
You mention the mountain blood which comes from Addison,well actually I am delighted with the Addisons!
I have seen some terrible Addisons on another farm,where the breeding policy is to just use the highest milk bull of the day without any regard to type.
We knew roughly what Addison would do and used him accordingly.I know you are a big fan of dairy character and I would say that is something we have with abundance in our herd,therefore Addison has worked for us.The Addisons have great texture in their udders combined with excellent ligaments and excellent teat placement.Quite a few have calved for the second time and have only improved.
The thing we have to do now is breed these cows to something that will refine them slightly..for that we have been using Principal.
Just to get you very excited Simon,one of the Addisons is out of a Mountain Dam...*listens for the Gasps!*
The Mountain was a fantastic example of an extreme dairy cow that didn't milk!She was out of a Blackstar out of Shanghi Mandingo Mandy.When we had an open evening recently she (the Addison) was chosen as one of the best 6 animals in the field ,she will go VG no problem.
Yes I suppose our system is effective but we can only get the milk that is bred into the cows in the first place!
--- Bickleygate holsteins
"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison |
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28/9/2003, 18:58
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simon powell
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Line breeding to Mountain, Mark???
I can't resist a little "gasp"!!!!!
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28/9/2003, 21:05
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foxleigh
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
I tend to disagree that that a low producing heifer(relative to herd average) will not make a high lifetime average or go on to mature and do 10,000l plus.
Over the years we have had numerous animals start on 5000l as 2yo and do 10,oool lactations.
and 70,000l plus lifetime.
eg our favorite bull dam with 10 sons used in at least that many herds,VG88, STP. She started on 6000l and then did 8000 and thendid numerous 10,000l lacts. On her first calf my husband commented what sort of an ugly round thing he'd gotton from his $14,000 purchase.Her test average was a 5.1% fat and 3.8% protein.
Many of our hanoverhill roxy D's did similar things.
We think the key to a keeping a lower than average producing heifer is persistance. If she comes in on 15litres with reasonible test(over 4%) and she gets in calf and goes out doing a similar amount ie.12 and is no trouble she gets another go.It is quite common for those to then come in doing double litres on 2nd.However if she comes in on 15 gets mud fat and is dry in 6 months she gets sold over the hook.
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28/9/2003, 21:05
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Roy MacGregor
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
I also tend to agree, 1st lactation heifers with slightly, lower yeild, does not nessesarily mean lower lifetime production, but yes it is hard to catch up later. Hopefully because shes not too stressed early, she will mature slower and produce longer. Think Mark deserves some credit for putting all this info up for everyones inspection, not many would be willing to do the same.
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30/9/2003, 0:34
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mark lee
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Couldn't agree with you more Roy,thanks for the info Mark,makes interesting reading,good to see an argument backed up with some hard evidence.
Doesn't this debate just come down to the key aspect of breeding-BALANCE?We all should know by now either by our own or others mistakes that if you use index bulls and ignore type then you end up with a herd of ugly high yielding heifers,whose replacement rates soak up all the profit from the milk.And vice versa,you continually breed for show type and ignore the production and you end up with a beautiful herd of cows but you have to go out and get an extra job to pay the bills.
There will always be milk bulls with no type,and there will always be type bulls with no milk,BUT there will always be a group of bulls that have both and its these that we should all be using and it is possible,just look at Mark Days records ,to breed beautifull cows that milk really well.Now,i may be sparking a whole new argument here but these for example did the job for me:
Juror
Astre
Integrity
Outside
Lee
Rudolph
Jed
....and there are many more.I know some people may have a problem with bulls that others think should be classed in this category but i'm sure you see what i'm getting at.Daughters of the above bulls,as well as many others,have milked fantastically well and still scored highly AND stayed in the herd long enough to pay for her heifer raising costs and then some of the bills.Only when a herd is moving in this direction will any money be made to put away for reinvestment or what ever else.This isn't just an isolated problem,its happening all over the world.Now dont get me wrong,i've always payed the upmost attention to type,but just because a cow looks good doesnt mean it will always earn you money,and earning money from cows ,for the majority of us,is the most important thing in todays financial climate.
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1/10/2003, 0:34
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simon powell
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
You are absolutely right Mark!!!!!
I believe the core of bulls that you have mentioned will cause very little argument, as generally they have produced daughters with the required type and production to create "profitable" herds.
It should also be noted that it is possible to breed a balanced cow from a much wider pool of bulls if the dam to be mated is exceptional in either type or production, (or both!!!).
For example, an extreme production cow has the ability to produce balanced, high production offspring when mated to a high type, low production, constructor bull. Likewise a cow that is extremely correct and is bred from several generations of equally good cows, has the ability to produce tidy offspring when bred to an extreme production, lower type bull.
Balance within breeding is crucial.
My point is really, that balance can come from just using balanced bulls. Or equally as effectively from using "unbalanced" bulls in a balanced way. This second scenario allows a greater diversity of bloodlines to be utilised, so long as they are blended with care!!!!!!
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1/10/2003, 10:41
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mmt95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Would like to see this same list of Mark's heifers milk output when they have finished their 3rd lactations. That also interests me. Will the same ones stay at the top or will they be mixed around?
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22/1/2004, 4:51
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