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mmt95
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
quote:
Will Richardson wrote:
Must agree with that statement Broa. We shouldnt be blaming bulls of high genetic merit for cattle falling apart. The only people who I see complaining about them are those who do not adjust their management practices to cater for these higher yielding cows. Look after the cow and she will look after you .
Whom should we blame? Wouldn't "high genetic merit" also include strength and stamina?
We don't need a Mercedes motor in a Yugo frame.
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22/1/2004, 20:23
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mmt95
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
A Yugo motor in a Mercedes frame? Just what bull stud offers that? I don't think a creature like that could come from an AI bull. I do give them that much credit.
By the way,if a bull is good enough to go to a stud, he is good enough to be released for general use fairly soon, so we can all see his daughters. And not be held incognito for 4 or 5 years waiting for a 1st crop daughter proof that doesn't mean much to some, who will then wait another 2 or 3 years for a srcond crop proof. He's old genetics by then, or at least a 9 year old cow would be.
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22/1/2004, 21:37
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mmt95
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
You can't have it both ways. A 1st proof based on the first three months of a 2 year old's record, is patience? No wonder we have to wait for a second proof.
When an AI bull is used continually form the start, each Summary release adds greatly to the realiability of his proof. You soon know about the daughters, and you don't have to go to a chat line to ask if anyone has seen one.
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23/1/2004, 3:29
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CHARITY
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
WILL HOW MANY 10YR OLD CELCIUS DO U OWN IN FACT DO U OWN ANY COWS OVER 5YRS OLD.I HAVE
SEEN MANY STARBUCKS FROM 2YR OLDS T0 16 YEARS
OLD WERE ARE THE JABOTS! THE ONLY JABOTS I HAVE SEEN WERE GOING FOR BEEF.THE DAY I USE
INDEX IS WHEN A LUCENTE WINS THE ROYAL!
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23/1/2004, 4:50
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CHARITY
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Well done i dont know anybody with this many
Celcius daughters still alive.In my eyes Celcius has more bad points than good.When
trying to maintain a good line of cows using bulls like this can make many problems for future generations were the bad traits come out.I for one am to scared to use bulls like
Cash,Sunny Boy,Celcius,Jabot,Labelle,and Lexus.These bulls put to many bad genes in the gene pool and can make breeding more difficult for me.I would feel better using bulls like
Raider,Gibson,Starbuck,Leduc,Linjet,and Sheik.They may not milk as good as heifers
but once they mature they should milk well.
Will use index bull if the mating is solid
and all bad points are compensated.
Used Brilea Talisman for his wicked type,not got a milk proof yet +15 for type.
He is a Marty x Bellwood x Blackstar x Dellia
Last edited by CHARITY, 23/1/2004, 10:10
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23/1/2004, 9:49
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CHARITY
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
I have never seen a good Luke before what do they look like!.The ones that i have seen have all been bad.Low components,high scs,
bad udders,and size,they do milk with good legs but why risk using a bull that throws
bad offspring, 1 EX 161 VG 808 GP 815 G
225 F 20 P
Also realy bad calving ease
Last edited by CHARITY, 23/1/2004, 10:07
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23/1/2004, 10:04
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Have to agree this Roza cow sounds amazeing, this cow spells profit. Also can't blame any A.I unit for trying to get a son from this cow, but I beleive the pedigree spells failure, NO WAY all the bad points of these bulls won't show up sometime. This cow is no different than the show cow from a poor family, or poor bull, they are 1 in a million, and they useually do not breed true. As for pampered cows in a box stall Roybrook, was a master at this, seems his bulls turned out to be not too bad in the general population. Was Starlight in his day not the big milk bull? Maybe I'm missing something, but I beleive you can use any bull you want, and acheive, or maintain a herd avg at or above 10,000 kgs without much effort. But to me its a lot easier getting up in the morning to milk those pretty ones milking 40-50 kgs, than just milking a bunch of cows. Sorry to offend anyone, but indexs the way they are today, are of no value, they are not baised on reality, they are paper figures, used to promote and sell genetics. They can be handy to sort things out, but they still are only ONE tool. There never is a winner in this argumeant, but it makes good reading. As for this thing with stillbirths being a dirty little secert, maybe thats true?? but if it is its the best secret EVER.
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23/1/2004, 13:56
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foxleigh
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
does this mean they are so slow I could pop down to the diner while I wait?
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24/1/2004, 6:29
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ghz
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Broa!
MMT95's idea of proving a bull is apealling to me too. It's pretty well how Durham was proven. Do you think his proof is biased?
While I understand the logic behind an initial random sampling, I have seen some terrible (pedigree) matings made by "comercial" but purebred farmers here in Northern Spain in that initial random sampling. Weakness upon weakness and inbreeding on average to poor cows. Random sampling can have a down side too.
I too am a fan of 200 daughters for bulls initial proof. In my mind its probably one of the better steps we could take in better utilising the breeds "population". How many sons of Moroville Mascot Brock would we have been spared with 200 daughters minimum in his initial proof.
Larger initial dauhgter groups I feel would weed out a lot of bad matings for young sires. How much more well utilised would the breed population be without the young sons of Brock, Celcius and the like.
And how much more better use could we make of the breed population if we went back to looking for young sires based on cow families, not just numbers. At least some of the people at the studs are talking "cow families" again . I hope its more than lip service. Greetings from Spain .
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24/1/2004, 19:17
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foxleigh
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
at IDW last week had interesting discussion with general manager from WWS who said that he used to think that 4 x yearly proofs were the way to go and a good thing.now he dreads them. bulls arent in the system long enuf to get enuf daus or are gone by the time we find out they were good enuf.
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24/1/2004, 20:59
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ghz
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Broa,
I also think there are quite a few families out there in the shadows that are being ignored.I think they are probably more type oriented with low or no index but high on lifetime prod.
Anyone know of any bulls out there out of the wimpy family?
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24/1/2004, 21:22
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mmt95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Putting stud bulls into general service immediately isn't original with me. That is the way it was previously done. Dairyman always jumped on the newest bull, and wasn't long until the truth was known, good or bad, by everyone. No chance for anyone, including studs, to hide the bum ones, or cook the records.
If they did, as might be the case in certain breeder proven bulls, the truth came out before much damage was done. Of course, if the STUDS decided to use a bull as a sire of sons before the proof was solid, you couldn't really blame the breeder.
They do the same thing now, using the lastest hot bull as a sire of sons, before the rest of us have even seen a daughter, let alone milked one.
We have to remember this, studs sell semen in a market where the competition is fierce, and they try very hard to make their offering look like the best deal. Improving anything but high quick milk production is incidental. Choose your bulls accordingly.
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24/1/2004, 22:05
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
I wouldn't use the word cooked, but pampered sounds reasonable. The top 3 breeders of class extra bulls in Canada all time, from 3 different periods. Mount Victoria, Hanoverhill, Comestar. Thier is not one bull in a unit from these herds whose dam was not individually pampered. Most had or have extreme value, and ANYONE who owns such cows would do the same. Far as I can tell, they had, or have produced, some of the most widely used bulls of all time as well. This is what I would call the art of breeding, useing a bull with a just released proof, on the highest indexing cow you can find, is at best like mmt95 says, improveing milk production is easy, but comformation proofs are quite offten incidental.
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25/1/2004, 17:27
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
price also makes a difference!
semex's designer series bulls empire and astronomical are now $45 despite still being unproven to stop people from using them instead of other young sires.
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25/1/2004, 19:46
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Broa - I beleive the 3 farms mentioned above, were or are very skilled at pedigree reading, where as most skilled A.I sire selectors today have there hands tied, to just get the first of what they hope is the best. Maybe for a cow like smous describes on his Frankencow post, but over here in North America you cannot have bulls like Ned Boy, Mountain, Celcius, Patron ect, in a pedigree, to stack odds in your favour, and call yourself a pedigree reader. Thats whats called gambleing with absolutely no chance of winning. As for the price of $45, all that shows is that there is a VERY, VERY strong market out there for bulls from truely strong cow familys, and a lot less guessing. As oppossed to a good cow family, crossed with an index sire at the end to hopefully get an all round bull.Otherwise these bulls would be on the self waiting like all the rest. These bulls may only have as good of chance as any, and they may not turn out, but it surely shows the frustration of your true predigree readers.
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26/1/2004, 4:45
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