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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Smous - I did not say my way is the only way, I beleive your type of cow for your system is fine, and I totally respect these breeders, my cow would be totaly useless in their herds. I also hold the same opinion as you about single trait selection. ACI sorry to dissagree but the bulls you mentioned, will get zero to no use in Canada period. In our true type cow those bulls do not fit, because of indexs they are finding their way into some of the bulls in A.I, but this is why some have no problem paying $45 for a young sire, with a pedigree that suits them.
To say paying $45 dollers is a joke, is to say all that do are stupid, and that is not the case, as there are plenty of real good breeders doing just that. If I'm not mistaken, are there not some folks in Europe doing the same?? If so why do you think that they would do such a ridiculous thing. You can call it whatever you like but no type consious pedigree breeder in Canada, would use a sire with Celcuis, and Ned Boy up close to get progeny to keep. The only situation that would make that happen is marketing for export.
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26/1/2004, 13:43
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broa
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
quote:
you cannot have bulls like Ned Boy, Mountain, Celcius, Patron ect, in a pedigree, to stack odds in your favour, and call yourself a pedigree reader. Thats whats called gambleing with absolutely no chance of winning.
It just might be about as smart as paying $45 for a test bull
and I wasn't aware that one can only read certain pedigrees???
As much as you may dislike the bulls you mention and to some extent I agree, especially on Ned Boy, there are Canadian bulls that will cause just as much damage to a pedigree in my opinion.
one being Jubilant who is the worst bull ever used in Scandinavia for stillbirths at 29%.
another one being Enhancer that would rate as probably the worst ever for feet and legs along with Ned Boy.
Maries Thunder, extremly slow milkers.
I could go on but I think you get the picture.
Do I say that if there's a cow with any of these bulls in her pedigree she can't be any good ?
ofcourse not, I would however make sure there's no sign of Ned Boy in the Sires pedigree if there's Enhancer in the bull dam, thats my version of "reading" pedigrees.
To divide the breed into "royalty" and "peasants" is not my idea of breeding for the future.
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"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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26/1/2004, 17:35
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broa
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
quote:
you cannot have bulls like Ned Boy, Mountain, Celcius, Patron ect, in a pedigree, to stack odds in your favour, and call yourself a pedigree reader. Thats whats called gambleing with absolutely no chance of winning.
It just might be about as smart as paying $45 for a test bull
and I wasn't aware that one can only read certain pedigrees???
As much as you may dislike the bulls you mention and to some extent I agree, especially on Ned Boy, there are Canadian bulls that will cause just as much damage to a pedigree in my opinion.
one being Jubilant who is the worst bull ever used in Scandinavia for stillbirths at 29%.
another one being Enhancer that would rate as probably the worst ever for feet and legs along with Ned Boy.
Maries Thunder, extremly slow milkers.
I could go on but I think you get the picture.
Do I say that if there's a cow with any of these bulls in her pedigree she can't be any good ?
ofcourse not, I would however make sure there's no sign of Ned Boy in the Sires pedigree if there's Enhancer in the bull dam, thats my version of "reading" pedigrees.
To divide the breed into "royalty" and "peasants" is not my idea of breeding for the future.
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"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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26/1/2004, 17:38
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Come on your putting words in my mouth, I do not beleive commercial, or type oriented, is like "royalty, and peasants" But they are totally different. Yes indeed their are lots and lots of bad bulls in Canada. Your not getting the piture at all. If Hanoverhill, were still going today they wouldn't get a second look from most A.Is, yet peter heffering, has produced some pretty impressive bulls. Question for you why did you or any A.I use Enhancer or Ned Boy in the first place, it wasn't because of their type, it was solely on production index. You may not like my opinion but anyone who takes a great cow family and jumps on them with an index bull to produce "balanced breeding" is no breeder. (weather they can read pedigrees or not)Some may be offended, by those crazy "breed for type, feed for milk breeders" but there is a lot of them, and they obviously, are not fooled by whats going on, hence willing to pay for what they get. Being very fussy on type is not a sin. What you may need in Scandinavia, may be differant, than what I need over here, I'm not useing your Scandinavian genetics so how would I know if they would work for me or not? ( I happen to be a big fan of some of their ideas for createing a total index) But you have and do use North American genetics, but all they do is cause or increase the chance of "stillbirths" so why then do you continue to use such genetics? What would be so evil with taking a high producing cow and putting a son in A.I from her by lets say Linjet? And would someone exsplain why it hardly ever happens.
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26/1/2004, 19:11
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
My personal opinion on this for whats its worth, I beleive you will make herd progress much faster by chooseing to use a few sires more. Having daughters of every bull will in the long run make genetic selection harder. In my own herd of 60 milkers, 3 or 4 differant bulls is enough for 90% of my herd. Once you start to buy 5 or 10 doses from everyone who comes in the driveway, you end up all over the map on uniformity, this makes breeding much harder weather you breed fot type, milk, index, commercial, show cows, meat cows, or ponys, whatever you may be after.
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26/1/2004, 21:49
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Enhancers worst points in my veiw, were calves with hernias, advanced anus, and herd life was poor. Very few old Enhancers, but the ones that did last just kept on getting better, massively deep ribbed, and powerfull cows. His F&Ls as far as I could tell were never as bad as perceived, maybe weak pastures, but this bull in a commercial all concreate system, was indeed a nightmare. Trying to avoid this bull in R&W holsteins, is like trying to avoid Cheif or Elevation in the B&W population, not easy to do, and not sure its nessesary. For me he worked great, and crazy it may be, but feel he is a good cross on Rubens, will add frame, unreal body depth, width, and although his pin rating is high, have seen hundreds of them, and feel this is not a problem. The Rubens on the other hand, complemeant Enhancers legs, udders, and add refinemeant and dairyness, also Starbuck x Enhancer worked not too bad, and Rubens is full of that. Know full well 99.9% would think this is crazyness, but have tried it, and will again, I'm sure as I like what I see so far.
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27/1/2004, 4:09
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smous
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
As always its horses for courses. Enhancer might not have worked well in confinement systems but he worked a treat on pastures. One of the very best local bulls was Hagermans Brazen, he was an Inspiration x Enhancer x Tradition Buttercup (the recent HI article mentions the Enhancer dams show ring exploits but failed to mention the three good sons she left, hold onto your false teeth, the Inspiration as mentioned, a Mascot and a Mandingo!) Brazen left near perfect pasture cows, just medium in stature (for Canadians, read short)but with awesome body capacity, truly fancy udders and good feet and legs. They also have lovely long dairy necks and flat bone. His bad points were some high pins and occasionally too long teats, his real whammy was massive calves, he killed quite a few cows in his time. I believe Enhancer also did very well in Australia and had a good proof there (perhaps farmerjoe or foxleigh can enlighten us.) As a matter of interest the Enhancers Mascot son left very similar cows to his brother with a bit more milk. The Mandingo sons daughters arent quite as neat but evidently milk well.
We had a senior guy from Select visit last year, he had just come from Australia and New Zealand, where he had seen such good old daughters of Mountain and Mascot that it had actually changed his perspective on the bulls.
Last edited by smous, 27/1/2004, 6:13
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WWS-SA
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27/1/2004, 5:46
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Postive traits are bred specifically for 99% of the time. Occasionally something turns up out of the blue that is beneficial to a dairy cow.
In other words, when breeding dairy cows, (or beef cattle, or parrots) breed for all the traits you need i.e. if you need milk, then you must use + kg milk pta above the pta of the cow being bred - reliable ptas don't come out of the air - they actually mean something! If you need high forage intakes then breed for Chest and Body, otherwise don't worry as she will only have a higher maitainence requirement. Remember, if you don't breed for it, you can't expect it to magically appear.
I am surprised to hear that no-one from the UK has even mentioned breeding for components. As a producer in Northern Ireland, where 80% of our milk goes to export, I specifically avoid bulls like Juror (for rotten feet and legs if nothing else), astre, starbuck etc. Yes, I admit that I have this blood in the herd, but it leaves those cattle in a position of commercial weakness.
In N.I. semen reps cannot shift any bull that isn't +ve fat and protein!
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27/1/2004, 15:53
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canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
Smous - I see what you are saying, but you seem to have the opinion that all Canadians want, is TALL and showy. This I can assure you is also crap. Most want all the same things as your asking for, so why all the resentmeant? I have to say I am pretty tired of hearing the over used term of "commercial environment" This is not the only place to sort out the best genetics. You can bet the farm some of the present day sires @ Semex in Canada, that were bred in Canada, Comestar, Brilea, Breadale for example look after, or some would say pamper, their bull dams. The funny thing is these guys, flush to one set of bulls for A.I and marketing, but use a different set of bulls at home. Surely we must admit there are two ways to look at this, maybe these bulls used in a large herd environment, just won't do the job, ( just a thought) cause an awfull lot of the sires comming from these large herd environments are not what the breeder wants over here. One way is not better than the other just DIFFERENT.
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27/1/2004, 18:45
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IndiesViewGD
EX95
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
We're from the U.S. and we do take components into consideration. Our main empahsis is of course type, and we like fancy show cows. At the same time we also don't use many low component bulls and if we do we only use them on high component cows or on cows we feel we can get a show calf out of the mating.
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28/1/2004, 3:27
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
quote:
If I wanted % fat and protein I would have crosssed with Jerseys years ago.But I do in the main select for a minimum of fat and protein Kgs .. around 45kg combined and at least 650 preferably 700 kgs of milk
Do I take it that you are on some kind of liquid contract that does not reward or penalise significantly for % of F&P in milk supply? In N.I., I think I am right in saying that all producers are penalised heavily by which ever company or co-op for low constituents. My co-op deducts 0.032 p/l for every 0.1% protein below base and 0.016 for Fat. (Base being 3.18 and 4 %). Breeding for solids is essential, and in a future climate of lower milk price, the quality bonus/deduction becomes an increasingly bigger part of the milk cheque than in a higher price situation.
PS (high component milk is inversely correlated with SCC).
PPS (no offence to Jerseys, but....no.)
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28/1/2004, 11:45
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
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Brown Swiss?
I would stand to receive a considerable number of litres on butterfat adjustment terms provided that comes into play. Perhaps my situation is different from yours. I have no problem keeping butterfat reduced. A high concentrate diet tends to be strongly linked to reduced butterfat. My problem is trying to keep it anywhere near my butterfat base. Feeding fibre and the latest balance of saturated/unsaturated oils is a help, but not the whole story.
Regardless of butterfat, I see protein as the most important, being worth twice as much.
That brings Brown Swiss to the fore. Has anyone any comments on the breed?
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28/1/2004, 13:44
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Big Bird
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Re: Brown Swiss?
We used some brown swiss on our friesians at the same time we first used holsteins, for the protein. We were very pleased with the protein levels, yield & %, feet were excellent, thought the cross worked well.
Raised my interest in breeding and we went on to become pedigree Holstein.
Would have to say if I ran a non pedigree herd other breeds have things to offer by cross breeding, but I don't like the idea of crossing the larger breeds with channel islands, too extreme a difference.
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65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
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29/1/2004, 21:00
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Big Bird
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Re: Do I Still need to breed for production?
quote:
Will Richardson wrote:
Breeding continually for fat pecent is fine but in the UK as you well know Firingonall4 as fat % increases the amount of quota available decreases.As volume of milk sold per day has a direct effect on bonuses ( currently +0.8ppl for a farm averaging 2000 litres aday for January).Decreasing fat % slightly and increasing volume at a similar protein % actually gives me more quota to play with and in a case like this year I am in a position to either increase yield or lease quota out, at 14.5ppl to lease out I am gonna make some money here.
Will, do you see a point where you wouldn't want to go any further with this?
Our base is 4.01, we used to produce up at around 4.2 which used to cost us quota litres. With changes to feeding and breeding we have increased our milk yields but our fat has come right back to 3.8% which gains us quota litres.
I now think we should be trying to get back closer to the 4% level, particularly as we are selling milking stock as well. I know if I look at a sale catalogue today I'm looking for over 4% fat, as are many others.
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65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
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30/1/2004, 10:51
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markavalley
GP81
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…
come on guys first lactation of 5000l something is wrong there
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17/6/2009, 1:35
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rossymons
EX91
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Re: …
quote:
markavalley wrote:
come on guys first lactation of 5000l something is wrong there
We have a couple of 10 calvers who started at that. They peak at about 8000l a lactation, but good fats and proteins, no trouble to keep. we have a combined total of about 14 heifers from them, and then there is grand-daughters and and great grand-daughters to think about it.
I chase bottom line here - not yield.
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6/7/2009, 21:26
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Do I Still need to breed for production?
sometimes we cull 5000l heifers sometimes we dont.some that we keep improve some stay the same production wise.this year we culled a dundee that did 5500l and a luckymike that came in doing 13litres.The dundee was a round pig and the luckymike was frail with a bad attitude.
We have a sir christopher took 3 lactations to get to 7000l and yet her 87pt durham dau did that on first calf.generally if the animal is the right shape,gets in calf ,low cell count and good temprement she gets another go - we dont push or breed for high 2yo milk because generally they dont last long here
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6/7/2009, 22:23
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