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Smurf4
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FRADON REDLINER
Bull or heifer!!?
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2/6/2008, 13:58
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sparkoflife
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FRADON REDLINER
I've got 5 cows bred to redliner and my rep hasn't mentioned anything to me, if there was a problem with the bull he would tell me for sure. I have contacted the association about reports of deformed calves but only three cases are reported, and all are being tested in labs right now. If there really is a problem breeders need to notify the association so that the right steps can be taken to reimburse those of us who have bought semen. I guess three official reports isn't enough for the AI guys to even look at.
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2/6/2008, 17:31
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triday1
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FRADON REDLINER
if I had a deformed calf I probaly wouldn't report it, because the association would want a sample and then I'd probaly get billed for it. I get billed for all kinds of crap from them already, I don't need to fund genetic testing for recessives for bull studs.
They already give the studs a lot of hand outs, let the studs foot the bills.
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3/6/2008, 13:51
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sparkoflife
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FRADON REDLINER
In that case there aren't any indicators or records of a problem and therefore no grounds for a stud to take action and/or accept any responsibility. On the subject of handouts you really should take a look at the size of Browndale Sires, (I have a small farm and the assistance I qualify for wouldn't put a tank of gas in my truck) they don't appear to be a very large outfit and probably don't qualify for those "handouts". Again if there is a problem it has to get reported to the association. As producers we are the source of these documented reports.
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3/6/2008, 14:18
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sparkoflife
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FRADON REDLINER
I just spoke to the association again and there are no fees involved for any reporting or sampling/testing of deformed calves. They are asking for all of the info that they can get so that they can take the appropriate steps to identify the problem. When they have enough samples they can then decide if it is the bull's fault or something that may have been induced during pregnancy.
Anybody that gets anymore of these calves needs to report it to the association and send samples off. This will help all of us that have pregnancies to the bull.
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3/6/2008, 15:09
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Mayjay
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
Thank-you Spark for your assistance and integrity. Word from head office is that there have only been 3 reported cases. Two of which are from the same herd that mulefoot originated, known for intense inbreeding. No mention of halting sales of the bull. My opinion would be to either use him wisely or not use him at all. Still births and preemies are likely more to do with cow nutrition and herd health than blaming a bull. If Redliner is of concern to your breeding program, next time you hear of a freak, take the initative and send in a sample yourself. Heresay doesn't do anybody any good. If there is a problem we all need to know the truth, innocent until proven guilty.
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3/6/2008, 17:12
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triday1
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FRADON REDLINER
my post came off a bit harsh, i had just gotton off the phone with the US association over some screwed up registration/billing crap. I am a big fan of the browndale sires and farm.
Mayjay how do you propose one uses a bull throwing deformed calves wisely( seems to me the wise course of action would be to not use the bull, what possible incentive do people on here have to make this up?)?????
Sparky,How can it help people with pregnancies to the bull? Unless on farm gene therapy is now possible.(I am smiling like a wise ass right now)
Taurus in this country(USA) knows of quite a few reported cases of deformities, increased stillbirth etc.(far beyond the scope of bad dry cow management), seems odd they wouldn't have sent word north of the border. Frankly if a person used the bull now, and found out about these reports of deformed calves later and got a deformed one, you would have grounds for a pretty good lawsuit.
How is me( i beleive bscott actually has a deformed one has seen several more at a friends) reporting on here ( exchanging information to fellow breeders) a calf I saw with my own eyes that is missing half it's rib cage and had a lump sticking out over 16 inches on it's side(turned out the lump was where the rumen burst thru the muscle layer due to lack of ribs) hearsay? It's a pretty good operation with good records, and I felt like a jackass because I recomended they try the bull when I did. The unfortunate victim here is the cow family, it's a pretty impressive family that will carry a cloud over it from now on. The second major question is what bloodlines are carrying this recessive that when combined with redliner give you the deformed calves.
Last edited by triday1, 3/6/2008, 18:19
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3/6/2008, 18:06
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bscott
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FRADON REDLINER
First of all believe me when I say I wanted Redliner to be a big hit or I wouldn't have flushed my best RC cow to him and sold the first choice. But trust me when I say that the only resulting calf has serious malformations, and out of dozens of Ets from her mother she is the only one. And with 80 or so calves born here per year, with this the only messed up one I think its more than coincidence. Neighbors have had approx a dozen calves so far (60 cow herd), 5 preemies, no problems with other sires.
I stand firm in my opinion that it is the bull studs responsibility to get to the bottom of this. They are the owners of the bull, and they are the ones who have made quite a bit of money from semen sales. Beyond pointing out the problems to the semen rep, why should it be on the breeders to go out of our way?
I wish I had Buckeye's reps, sounds like they're more on the ball than others.(being serious, not sarcastic)
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3/6/2008, 21:03
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sparkoflife
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FRADON REDLINER
Triday - this may take a bit but the following is how it will help those of us with pregnancies to Redliner.(everything that follows is meant to be helpful,and for thoughtful consideration)
My experience with reimbursements is that none are made if there have been no attempts at due process (due process being reporting calves) I do believe that it is the responsibility of the Reps to relay information to the stud/office and that they (the stud) should take appropriate action. But picture the process:
Option 1 - You tell your rep and he forgets or is delayed for a day or two, the rep tells the office and like most offices with too much administrative B S it takes three days to analyze any information given to them, the stud contacts the farmer/producer to inquire about the problem calf, the stud identifies the problem and because they are not liscensed or hold permits to pick up calves they are forced to call the Association which has the available network/contacts in place to arrange transport or identification of the said animal (adding acouple more days). This option is looking at a minimum of 5 days before the farmer is contacted and 7 days before the calf can be identified or transported to the appropriate lab. Where is the calf after 5 or 7 days? (probably gone)
Option 2. The calf is born deformed/preemie/dead, producer calls association and the association decides to collect the calf or just record the problem. This option takes a few minutes to two days to possibly collect the calf.
As producers we are the ones who benefit from the good calf or eat the costs of the deformed calf that had the potential to be the next red calf from the next great bull out of our best red cow. Which is more expensive? 1. To not make the report and rely on our reps = 7 days, no calf to show or no desire to carry on with the reporting process, no official claim to the association, no penalty set for the stud to accept responsibility, $0 reimbursement.
2. Report immediately = Association investigates and finds a problem, stud is forced to take action and make appropriate reimbursements for any animals that meet the association's criteria and therefore creating a program where all producers having used the bull, and end up with deformities/preemies/dead calves, have immediate access to reimbursements.
This immediate access is what will help those of us that have prepregnancies to the bull.
I'm not sure if you call it power or responsibility or even burden, but we are the drivers of this business (without us everything involved is nothing)and ultimately we have the ability to control what goes on in our business. I do believe that is why as producers we should take action and not leave it up to someone else.
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4/6/2008, 15:22
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Buze77
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FRADON REDLINER
I am a bit confused on to why people who used this bull as a young sire feel they have a need to be reimbursed. I understand there have been deformities and abnormalities being reported but aren't these all on 1st crop calves for the most part? i know it sucks but it is the chance we take when we use a young sire or a unproven bull. Its why we get the semen for $10 instead of $50. One knows there maybe a risk as to what type of conformation the calf might have or what production might be, but hardly ever does one think of abnormalities or still births. But those are all risks involved with using a unproven bull. I just don't think there is much you can do as far as getting reimbursed. just report the problems and inform the rest of us.
I just think it is a slippery slope to start bring court cases that have to deal with young sires. Your just going to drive the price of semen up so that stud companies can cover there rears and start doing all kinds of genetic testing befroe they release any bull. Whats to stop the next guy from wanting money back cause the bull he used as a "showcase selection" young sire ends up making daughters who look like crap.
I look at it this way...if Redliner turned out to be the hottest bull around with no deformities at all, made all americans, show winners everywhere , whould you think it fair for the stud company to send you a bill for the extra money they should have sold him for as a young sire? heck no! you would tell them you took the chance , used him as a reasonably priced young sire and it paid off.
I know many of you may disagree with what I said but that is just my opinion and reasons why i try not to mess with young sires too much because you never know what your gonna get.
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5/6/2008, 0:37
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sparkoflife
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FRADON REDLINER
Good call Buze, regardless of what the outcome may be it is up to us the producers to report these cases so that, if or when the bull gets a proof, producers will be able to see the risks of using this bull.
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5/6/2008, 11:46
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Mayjay
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
I had a buddy that used Starbuck when he first came out. He suffered 4 or so abortions all Starbuck fetuses. He raked him over the coals, claiming never to use that bull again. The lucky Starbuck calves that went full term, turned out to be his best cows. He used him later in life with zero problems. This may be of little interest to you, but if you were to save the rest of your Redliner semen until next year, you may have no problem with it. Maybe this is a pile of hokey but I have to tell you something. I haven't had any complaints from customers, although sales may increase with speculaters thinking the bull may get his throat slit. I might just be one of them. Thank -you to the guys that are doing your homework, we all benefit from your incentive.
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5/6/2008, 19:05
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bscott
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FRADON REDLINER
Buze- I couldn't agree more. I realize that we take a chance with young sires, esp when flushing. I just looked at it as high risk-high reward. Lesson learned.
Interesting timing on the part of the holstein association- the morning after my last post I got a phone call from them inquiring about my deformed redliner calf. They said Taurus reported it, and several others. I am sending in a hair sample, and they told me that whatever lab they use is bringing in several live but deformed calves to analyze. Said there's def a problem but they want to make sure all are really redliners before they take any action. Shame of this is, I agree that the normal ones are really nice calves.
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6/6/2008, 0:48
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bscott
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FRADON REDLINER
Buze- I couldn't agree more. I realize that we take a chance with young sires, esp when flushing. I just looked at it as high risk-high reward. Lesson learned.
Interesting timing on the part of the holstein association- the morning after my last post I got a phone call from them inquiring about my deformed redliner calf. They said Taurus reported it, and several others. I am sending in a hair sample, and they told me that whatever lab they use is bringing in several live but deformed calves to analyze. Said there's def a problem but they want to make sure all are really redliners before they take any action. Shame of this is, I agree that the normal ones are really nice calves.
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6/6/2008, 0:48
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JeffNYRC
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
quote:
Buze77 wrote:
I am a bit confused on to why people who used this bull as a young sire feel they have a need to be reimbursed. I understand there have been deformities and abnormalities being reported but aren't these all on 1st crop calves for the most part? i know it sucks but it is the chance we take when we use a young sire or a unproven bull. Its why we get the semen for $10 instead of $50. One knows there maybe a risk as to what type of conformation the calf might have or what production might be, but hardly ever does one think of abnormalities or still births. But those are all risks involved with using a unproven bull. I just don't think there is much you can do as far as getting reimbursed. just report the problems and inform the rest of us.
I just think it is a slippery slope to start bring court cases that have to deal with young sires. Your just going to drive the price of semen up so that stud companies can cover there rears and start doing all kinds of genetic testing befroe they release any bull. Whats to stop the next guy from wanting money back cause the bull he used as a "showcase selection" young sire ends up making daughters who look like crap.
I look at it this way...if Redliner turned out to be the hottest bull around with no deformities at all, made all americans, show winners everywhere , whould you think it fair for the stud company to send you a bill for the extra money they should have sold him for as a young sire? heck no! you would tell them you took the chance , used him as a reasonably priced young sire and it paid off.
I know many of you may disagree with what I said but that is just my opinion and reasons why i try not to mess with young sires too much because you never know what your gonna get.
I can agree and disagree. If you have any semen company pushing a bull, advertising a bull, and many many people are using it. Then it comes along with problems, that perhaps could have been tested for, before it was to be sold. Then the responsibility does lie with the semen company, in this case Taurus. The only way to get a proof as you know, is people use the bull as a young sire. Thing is, many big names have used him and sold 1st choices and live calves.. Saw it in March.
What never ceases to amaze me, is why they allowed a bull such as redliner, that is as inbred as he is, into service. Its not surprising that problems have arose, because as with even humans (royal family in England did show this years ago), you get deformaties.
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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6/6/2008, 11:31
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canuk
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
I'm 100% with Buzz77.
If you are brave enough to use a young sire on a big name cow, you should be brave enough to except what you get.
JeffNYRC- Do you think before you speak?
I don`t know if I should cry, or laugh, but it is safe to say you would be better off sometimes if you said nothing at all.
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6/6/2008, 11:53
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kmosabi
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FRADON REDLINER
not to debate this longer, Im glad HA is looking into it, but we just talked so someone who has had 40 born. No problems. love them. still using him.
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6/6/2008, 14:28
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Mayjay
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
My customers are my friends and I love them dearly for they help to feed my children. I would never call one of them a bad manager to their face, actually, I probably would, maybe that is why I have so few friends. In all honesty I didn't sell much Redliner, being the good managers that my customers are, I guess they knew enough not to use him. On the otherhand, I did, so what does that say about me. Tongue in cheek of course because I've learned to like myself just the way I am.
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6/6/2008, 15:25
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Buze77
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FRADON REDLINER
i would like to add a little more to what i mentioned earlier. I am not bashing on Redliner or his pedigree. Like someone said before, the good calves are really nice. Do I think Taurus should cut his throat? No not yet, I may want to use some myself down the road. I just want to find out what his best matings are or what matings to avoid first. A bull like durham was tested to be CVM and if everyone that got a CVM calf from using Durham as a young sire ran around suing SirePower or the Association the breed would have missed out on a pretty good bull to say the least.
Mayjay i am glad you have such a good relationship with your customers, I wish some of my reps would be a little more interested in me and my breeding ideas as opposed to just pushing their bulls. Actually my latest Taurus/Foundation sire rep just took on another job so if your looking to expand your area and travel to VT i'd be happy to meet you.
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6/6/2008, 15:55
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Mayjay
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
I just had another small think in my head, just to try to keep an argument going. I have found in my travels that the breeders who only use proven bulls, and wouldn't touch a young sire to save his life, have exremely good cows. On the other hand, I think it tells alot about the person. Looking out for number one. If you aren't interested in helping the industry or fellow breeders what are the odds you're giving to the cancer society when they knock on the door.
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6/6/2008, 16:19
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Buze77
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FRADON REDLINER
Not sure if you are comparing apples to apples in that statement.
Are you implying that those who use young sires are doing so to help out the breed and not themselves? i hardly think so. i would say that those who use young sires are looking for the next big thing. Trying to get a first crop daughter of a hot bull so they can get it pictured or sell embryos before anyone else. I think you could make the argument those who use young sires are looking out for themselves just as much as someone who uses a proven bull. I bet for everyone who is interested in strictly using bulls that are 95%+ reliability there are 10 breeders waiting for the new proof run to be released so that they can use the newest hot release bull with only 40 daughters in 30 herds.
Just because i don't handle hypodermic needles doesn't mean I am not interested in curing AIDS.
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6/6/2008, 19:01
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canuk
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
Thats not what I said.
I actually used this bull, because I am impressed with the family, but ended up with 3 (healthy) bull calves. If I recieved 3 deformed heifers I would have just sucked it up, because before they were born nothing was known about any problems.
If I sold a first choice I also would have simply returned the money.
Sorry I am not of the sue everybody mentality, and again I agree 100% on Buzz77 last post as well.
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6/6/2008, 21:13
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foxleigh
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FRADON REDLINER
I didnt use this bull as I dont care for rudolf in a pedigree but Im guilty of using an inbred bull as an outcross and even guilty of importing and using all kinds of wierd and wonderful bulls that dont have proofs on my cows because I can.
AS far as I can tell all holstein associations know more about abnormalities than they will let on .I suppose they are frightened of being sued by a bull stud for scaremongering and potential loss of income.I would like to congradulate all the breeders brave enuf to stand up and say there is a problem.IM wondering where the common denominator is with this one - afterall every calf has both a sire and a dam and whilest this bull appears to be rotton with telstar blood there must be a trigger in a pedigree.
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6/6/2008, 21:33
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JeffNYRC
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
quote:
canuk wrote:
Thats not what I said.
I actually used this bull, because I am impressed with the family, but ended up with 3 (healthy) bull calves. If I recieved 3 deformed heifers I would have just sucked it up, because before they were born nothing was known about any problems.
If I sold a first choice I also would have simply returned the money.
Sorry I am not of the sue everybody mentality, and again I agree 100% on Buzz77 last post as well.
Your comment says otherwise..
Lets go back..
"I can agree and disagree. If you have any semen company pushing a bull, advertising a bull, and many many people are using it. Then it comes along with problems, that perhaps could have been tested for, before it was to be sold. Then the responsibility does lie with the semen company, in this case Taurus. The only way to get a proof as you know, is people use the bull as a young sire. Thing is, many big names have used him and sold 1st choices and live calves.. Saw it in March. "
I guess you had a problem with that.
CVM can be a problem, however its very rare. However with the bull branded being CV positive, you are willingly taking the chance. But if you have a string of problems with a bull, and its not advertised, then the responsibility falls on the semen company. Do I say sue? NO. But it should be advertised as such, if the bull does have underlying issues. This way someone thinking of using a sire knows of it, so if a calf comes along missing half a ribcage, or has a deformed hock, it wont be a surprise as he knew prior to using said sire. IF its isolated, where its one farm with the issue, then it can be deemed as such and its not necessary to advertise any problems, of course it also depends how many on one farm have problems.
Is this TOOOOO much to ask? and is it THAT much of an offense?
"
Edit: What never ceases to amaze me, is why they allowed a bull such as redliner, that is as inbred as he is, into service. Its not surprising that problems have arose, because as with even humans (royal family in England did show this years ago), you get deformaties."
I will also standby that statement. Allowing bulls into service that are overly inbred, is asking for trouble. Perhaps you had a problem with that statement as well canuk..
Jeff
Last edited by JeffNYRC, 6/6/2008, 21:53
---
"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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6/6/2008, 21:45
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Will Richardson
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Re: FRADON REDLINER
Do I think theres a problem with the bull ? Yes definitely. Fortunately he's only a test bull.That can be sorted.
If this bull came up with a cracking proof in a couple of years time I bet Jeff would be the first bloke to use him regardless
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6/6/2008, 23:52
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