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foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
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Location: southern,oz
Posts: 1956
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Re: Previous poll results
especially when you consider that there are over 100 people registared to use this forum and we get the same dozen arguing around and around the circle.
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3/4/2004, 7:26
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
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Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
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Re: Previous poll results
I would love to debate more than i do. It is just a question of time. Our local dairy industry is entering a time of serious pressure and as a result, I only have time to argue about things that are relevant to my business.
Bottom-line facts are what I want to talk about i.e. cows paying their way - producing kgs of milk solids efficiently, staying on their feet, udders that last as long as the feet, holding condition and getting back in calf, having mastitis resistance, fast milking, calving without assistance etc.
As for lengthy chat about deep pedigrees of bulls with a PLI of £20 or £30, or what colour they are, or how sharp and showy a cow is, or how well she parades out of her individual straw pen, or advocating fool prices for straws of very out of date bulls (and less than ordinary by today's standards)etc. - the list is endless. These things I find do not lead to progress in terms of economics or efficiency.
When I feel tempted to think in terms of beautiful, balanced cows with clean bone and dairy character, my local New Zealand friend quickly brings me back to the real world by pointing out who I am in competition with, especially in exports, and asking me to think of what my five most economic cows are, and how they classify; my head sinks - I didn't see the wood for the trees.
In a country where farm labour is fast disappearing and medicinal use will become more and more restricted, who will be there to assist the Jeds in calving, treat the high cell score daughters we knowingly bred, trim the feet of the chief mark blood?
How many cowboys and girls realise that there little or no correlation between lifespan and 'high' type merit? Daughters of some negative type bulls seem to live just as long.
And what is the correlation between type merit and milk solids production?
Should we not keep racehorses instead of the black and white equivalent? They would after all kill out much better when they leave the system prematurely.
The bottom line for my farm is milk solids production made possibly by simple, relevant, functionality.
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5/4/2004, 20:30
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foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
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Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 1956
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Re: Previous poll results
which country are you from?
australia is currently also in major crisis.
and yes a lot of whats here might not be relevant but does give info on ie. what bulls to steer clear of.
components to us are first and foremost in terms of production but noone blinked an eyelid when I mentioned we had our first 5% fat milk pick up ever with a 100% purebred holstein herd. currently our quota milk is 30cents a litre but our over quota 47 cents (we supply pauls/parmalat)becauseof the high component.even in the spring we got 5 cents a litre more for our over quota milk than neighbouring suppliers who had a lot lower test. however the neighbours are chasing a 10,000l av and are happy to feed 10kg of grain a day at 27cents a kg to produce 15 cent a litre of milk.where the economies of scale come in I dont know!!!I still havnt found out how much milk is enuf milk but obviously amlkman doesnt supply the hillmar cheese co in CA(maybe they are OR?)or they wouldnt still be arguing the merits of color over type and production.
if you want to mention what you do to get components etc Id be happy to enter into discussion with you.
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6/4/2004, 0:21
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
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Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
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Re: Previous poll results
I suspect that at least some of the 40 odd percent of those who breed for production, to achieve production, feel just a little intimidated by some who flash their extensive knowledge of North American Holstein breeding.
Colour, for example, may have an impact on a colour specialist breeder's bottom line, who markets stock with such attributes. For the rest of the world who must live on the profit of milk production, such subjects are a mere diversion.
I can also see how those supplying liquid contracts are happy to breed and feed for 'white water', and to talk about such pedigrees.
All my countrymen are paid in pence per litre, although this is really just a cover for payment on milksolids, as deductions and bonuses for quality reflect the real content of our milk. (Northern Ireland).
Northern Ireland has high quality breeding within its territory, but on the whole is not genetically advanced when compared to countries such as Holland. There is not nearly enough A.I. in general use. This region is what I consider to be semi-grazing i.e. a long winter means we can identify with high production regimes, and grazing regimes (with many farms combining the two). Over 80% of milk is exported. We are not paid well for white water. Most cows spend at least six months of the year on concrete floors and lying in cubicles.
In other words, when I find a series of bulls for my breeding program that produces daughters that stand well on concrete, produce milk containing good fat and protein levels, hold condition but have persistancy of lactation, rebreed etc. I have no longer room to consider refinements for the showring.
My Co-op sets a base of 4.00% bf and 3.18%pr. NI average is 0.2 below bf base and slightly above protein base. Both stats are falling annually, thanks mainly to American/Canadian breeding taking its toll.
Please forgive me if I find talk of the next madison queen tedious.
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6/4/2004, 11:39
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canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
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Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1319
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
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Re: Previous poll results
This thread is supposed to be about poll results, however FiringOnAllFour, I respect your point of view. Color as far as I know, has no bearing on production, but it does have a HUGE impact on my bottom line, and I find any relating topics interesting. If you find them uninteresting, or a mere diversion, why read them?? I like you get paid for components, and I like you, don't nessesarily care who the next Madison Queen is, in fact, I hardly follow it, I would have a hard time naming more than 3 or 4 All American, or All Canadian cows. However I do find all cow related topics interesting, be it show cows, index, crossbreeding, R&W, whatever the topic, and I think most on here feel the same. If we all had the same opinion, there would be no need to talk about it, and that you say you are intimidated by this seems a shame. If you have a question, ask it, you may get some replys you like, you may get some you don't, but if you only want one opinion, don't ask. Maybe there would be enough interest out there for a commercial cow talk only, I did hear a mention about another forum from foxleigh, can't recall the name, but she did say it heavily supported the index or (production) view, maybe you should check it out.
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6/4/2004, 14:45
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
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Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
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Re: Previous poll results
Sorry Canuk, but where did I say that I feel intimidated? Please read that part again.
I would hardly leave myself open for this criticism if I was the shy type!
I do not wish anyone to be offended by my comments. I realise that some may find them rather inflammatory, but my purpose was to help the balance of what can be slightly lop-sided debates in favour of high type. I was suggesting reasons for the weight of the 'production' vote, thereby keeping the 'thread' in sight.
Furthermore, I think that Canadians are really nice people, and that goes for the Americans too!
PS (my secret vice is that I like a pretty cow too - but don't tell anyone!).
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6/4/2004, 15:45
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canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
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Re: Previous poll results
Intimidated appears in the 1st paragraph. As for Canadians, in general we have an identity crisis, sometimes it seems, we could be swallowed up by our neighbors to the south, if we don't keep a little bit of our uniqueness, it no longer would be North American genetics, it would be American genetics were talking about. We Canadians are a mere drop in the bucket as far as world production goes, one county in Califoria could probably, supply all the milk we need, in our whole country. Type is our forte, if we don't keep it, we no longer would exsist.
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6/4/2004, 16:04
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
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Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
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Re: Previous poll results
Canuk
'Intimidated' appears in the first paragraph. Nothing suggests it must refer to me.
(I was in very severe business mode when I wrote that. I can be light-hearted too, but my post wouldn't have been as effective).
I, for one, have never sought to lump American and Canadian people together. I know this can be offensive - just as I don't like Northern Irish and Southern Irish to be lumped together. You are right to hold your identity. People are naturally diverse. Don't be fearful that you will be swallowed up by your neighbours. That will not happen. Just pray you are not standing too close when they are swallowed up by the next superpower. Nations rise, and nations fall. Britain has already been there. AND, we are about to be swallowed up by the European Union.
As for type breeding, I thought there was more behind this! If it is the way forward for Canada, then I whole-heartedly support the policy. If it helps national moral, then more to the good. We (the rest of the world) will be happy to sample the best of what you produce!
At least I can find you easily on a map. Get your glasses on if you want to find me!
Last edited by FiringOnAllFour, 6/4/2004, 19:56
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6/4/2004, 19:37
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
Global user
Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
Karma: 39 (+39/-0)
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Re: Previous poll results
Foxleigh
First of all, warm congratulations on the 5%bf lift. A Jersey man would be proud! I have been away for a break and didn't see your announcement.
Would you mind if I asked a little of the background of that bulk test?
Daily cow yield? Stage of lactation? Block calving?
What diet are your cows on, if you don't mind giving away your secret? Me would like to know velly much!
PS I mean a man with jersey cows, rather than a man from the island of jersey. Although he would be proud too!
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6/4/2004, 19:53
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stuart m
GP83
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Registered: 03-2004
Posts: 31
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Re: Previous poll results
Haven@t the NZ breeders who are using Bellwood and Mountain bioodlines taken their eye off the ball just as much as a man blinded by the showring . These cows need more than 15 kg dm of grass dm/day to perform. They woud have been better off with A.F.Prefect or W.PM.Bramble.
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6/4/2004, 22:13
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simon powell
EX94
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Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
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Re: Previous poll results
IN DEFENSE OF COWTALK.
FOAF and Ron,
Whilst I appreciate that what you are both trying to do, is to encourage more posts concerning the economic production of milk, rather than breeding philosophies. I feel obliged to point out, that this forum is open to anyone with an interest in dairy cows.
All members are free to start any cow related topic they wish,(or even non cow related, for that matter!).
We can all find topics on this forum that hold little interest for us. Non are compulsory!!!!!
This is not an index forum, a show cow forum, a type forum or even a milk producer forum. It is a vehicle for debate and discussion on a whole range of topics concerning our dear old cows and their produce.
If you are not inspired by this forum, then start a thread that does inspire you!!
CONTRIBUTE POSITIVELY!!!!!!
Perhaps I'm coming over all defensively, but I just feel that a certain Mr Day, has created something of which he can be incredibly proud.
Through his time, effort and careful management we are able to utilise this wonderful medium, for our own enjoyment and education.
To suggest that you have seen it all before, or that large parts of it bore you, is verging on the inpolite!!!
Your contributions will help make the content, even more diverse and interesting. Please don't belittle our current members or their interests!!
Inspire the silent majority rather than knock the active.
P.S. Ron, I think I'm a category 5!! (And it's not just non pedigree breeders that are busy- hence late night posting!!!)
P.P.S.THANK-YOU VERY MUCH, MR MARK DAY!!!!!!!
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7/4/2004, 0:17
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canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
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Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1319
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
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Re: Previous poll results
Simon - Well done, AGAIN. You certainly have a nack for saying the right things at the right time. I also would like to thank Mark for his effort, and have to say I'm glad the shout box is gone, and wish more would vote on his polls.
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7/4/2004, 0:35
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FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
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Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1600
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Re: Previous poll results
I join the chorus of praise for Mark's inspiration, hard work and the wonderful forum.
Simon
I am very pleased to be a part of this forum. It certainly is not my wish that the forum would be purely commercial - merely that there could be at least some debate on the commercial significance of e.g. holstein breeding topics - something surely most of us have a vested interest in.
You are correct that I wish to raise the profile of the 'less-fanciers' lobby, and I do not wish to stifle the opinions of the fanciers in the process.
There is room for us all - and it is my perogative to take or leave some of the topics that I find disinteresting. This is no insult to those topics or their contributors. Rather, it is a reflection of my relative inability to appreciate their topic!
Please don't be defensive Simon. I come in peace.
My new approach will be one of greater moderation, subtlety, and inoffensiveness.
PS I may also change my username to John Major. Very nice man. My mother loves him.
:look
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7/4/2004, 9:33
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simon powell
EX94
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Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
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Re: Previous poll results
Cheers FOA4,
There is no need to be a moderate. This forum thrives on radicals.
My point really was, if something doesn't suit you, then go ahead and influence threads that do. The forum is only as diverse and interesting as the members who contribute. I am aware of many who follow the threads but NEVER post!!!
You may be busy and under pressure, but aren't we all?
This forum needs you!!
Fire away!!
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7/4/2004, 9:48
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mmt95
EX95
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Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 549
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
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Re: Previous poll results
In regard to the current pole, "milk will follow type". It is certainly not automatic. You have to intellgently breed for the milk.
On the other hand trying to get type in a poor type heavy milking cow is a difficult thing to do. Most of the time, there too many things to fix to get it all done in one generation.
I do know of one bull that was pretty good at making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but he is no longer in AI.
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7/4/2004, 14:59
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Previous poll results
