Page: 1 2 3 4
ronflatness
.
Global user
Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 248
Karma: -6 (+1/-7)
|
 | 
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Simon ....I also congratulate Mark on this nice forum! I said nothing to belittle him or the forum.
Thus no need to attack me. Can't interpret however, if you think I should post more or less? All my posts are meant as a positive contribution.
|
|
8/4/2004, 20:07
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
quote:
smous wrote:
Latest poll is interesting, so far there are 22 people or 46% who vote nay to the statement 'Breed for type and milk will follow.' In my opinion that is a far bigger percentage than you would expect given the general bent of the postings on Cowtalk. (I may be wrong.) There would be appear to be a sizable 'silent' block of people who do not necessarily follow the 'fanciers' chorus. More's the pity they do not enter the cyclic debates when they occur.
I would have to disagree as the poll shows the site is failry balance to type and index. As you see and hear many type breeders also feel it important to breed for production and would disagree with the statement. I for one agree 100 percent with the statement and that is how we breed our cows.
|
|
8/4/2004, 21:31
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
quote:
mmt95 wrote:
In regard to the current pole, "milk will follow type". It is certainly not automatic. You have to intellgently breed for the milk.
On the other hand trying to get type in a poor type heavy milking cow is a difficult thing to do. Most of the time, there too many things to fix to get it all done in one generation.
I do know of one bull that was pretty good at making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but he is no longer in AI.
Again would disagree in our experience our daughters of low milk bulls will milk. This of course happens with good management and emphasis on cow comfort and a steady schedule. I feel and have noticed in my experience that if cows are managed well and fed right they will milk regardless.
|
|
8/4/2004, 21:34
|
|
foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 2196
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
whats journalists full name?
|
|
8/4/2004, 22:03
|
|
foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 2196
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
hey you was expecting a bull with 3 crosses of sweethaven tradition to milk?
I notice he is minus 500l for milk in this country
|
|
8/4/2004, 22:19
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
quote:
MarkDay wrote:
So how come my Addison heifers give 45 litres/day and my Journalists give 25 litres(on a good day) both under the same management.Needless to say I voted NO in the poll!!!!!!!!!
Yes Mark I will say genetics do play a factor. As for us though we have cow families which milk and therefore we breed for type. We have a Linjet two year old who is milking close to 80 lbs per day and will be one of our top producing two year olds. I can't use a comparison like you used because we use pretty much strictly type bulls but I will say this We have a rolling herd average of about 23,000 lbs. with no BST or TMR and on 2x milking; this is using pretty much strictly type bulls, I don't know what that is in liters but will say that I still feel good management plays a bigger factor than does genetics.
|
|
9/4/2004, 0:38
|
|
ronflatness
.
Global user
Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 248
Karma: -6 (+1/-7)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
80% of your herd avg. is management.
80% of the difference in production in your herd is genetic.
If you have cow families that milk and you use type bulls with no milk, you will develop your own beef herd.
Just like Sen. Harry Hays from Canada and his descendents of Spring Farm Fond Hope.
|
|
9/4/2004, 2:31
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
quote:
ronflatness wrote:
80% of your herd avg. is management.
80% of the difference in production in your herd is genetic.
If you have cow families that milk and you use type bulls with no milk, you will develop your own beef herd.
Just like Sen. Harry Hays from Canada and his descendents of Spring Farm Fond Hope.
I'll let you know when I get my beef herd hasn't happened yet actually production is higher now than its ever been.
|
|
9/4/2004, 2:33
|
|
bob hardy
VG87
Global user
Registered: 03-2004
Posts: 96
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
It is difficult to know what is good and what is not good. So much depends on feed and management. 23,000 rolling herd average may be good, it may not. Nobody knows if your genetics are actually holding you back another 7 or 8,000 lbs or lifting you by a few thousand litres. Only if you bought in something from elsewhere would you really know how good your genetics are. I remember **** Lewis at Shanghai Holsteins, Columbus OH.He averaged over 30,000 lbs on twice a day 10 years ago. His barn was full of big Ex cows. Seem to remember a few Ex95 Marks.
So if your feed is good and your management good 30,000 must be achievable today.
This is why they have nucleus herds - to see how cows from different places perform under same management.
Sometimes buying in a cow from elswhere with a bit different breeding will tell you an awful lot. How many times have we heard farmers saying " she never got those yields when she came here" or conversely, " I didn't realise that cows could have that much will to milk"
|
|
9/4/2004, 5:04
|
|
FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
Global user
Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1839
Karma: 41 (+41/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Some 'type only' people don't seem to realise that a low milk bull on proofs, is lower because his daughters are, on average, LOWER IN MILK! This is not brain surgery!
You may have an example of one that milks. Pity the men with typical daughters!
PS Mark, I can identify with the Addison/Journalist scenario. One Addison heifer is due to end up at 18,000kg (conceived at 250 days), while the two Journalists have peaked at 29 and 33kgs. Will they reach 8000kgs if they conceive quickly? Doubt it very much.
|
|
9/4/2004, 8:40
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1329
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
FOAF- You must have the A.Is, banging the barn doors down. 18,000 kgs, and no special treatmeant, hows there condition? Very surprised you have 2 Journalists, after all this talk about, sharpness and angularity.
What do you mean by
"type only people" ??
|
|
9/4/2004, 13:08
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 3062
Karma: 33 (+33/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
quote:
FiringOnAllFour wrote:
PS Mark, I can identify with the Addison/Journalist scenario. One Addison heifer is due to end up at 18,000kg (conceived at 250 days), while the two Journalists have peaked at 29 and 33kgs. Will they reach 8000kgs if they conceive quickly? Doubt it very much.
So you're unhappy with fertility yet prepared to extoll the virtues of a heifer that will have a 530 day calving index???
|
|
9/4/2004, 15:10
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 566
Karma: 12 (+12/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Don't really mean to belabor the point, but IndiesViewGD said they used good type lower milk bulls. (I'm sure they use the higest milk bulls that qualify typewise) He didn't say, "minus". I doubt if you could even find a bull in the AI lineups that wasn't plus for milk. You know you will get milk, so why not try to keep improving type? For smaller registered herds it will pay off.
Ron mentioned using Criscross on a Reflector daughter, I assume he ment Woodbourne Inka Reflector, As one dairyman put it, "That bull could dry up a flood." Using Criscross on that kind would surely create a drought.
Reflector was right at 80% GP or better on a large number of daughters in many herds, so he saw a lot of use.
Last edited by mmt95, 9/4/2004, 22:26
|
|
9/4/2004, 15:32
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
I wouldn't say we necessarily use lower milk bulls I'm just saying it doesn't matter to us what the milk proof says; however, we do look at components. To give you some examples bulls we are using fairly heavily right now include September Storm, Costeau, Boss Iron, Durham, Outside, and the list goes on; however, we do have semen on bulls like Linjet, Red Marker, and Counselor in the tank.
|
|
9/4/2004, 16:20
|
|
ronflatness
.
Global user
Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 248
Karma: -6 (+1/-7)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
MMT, Like many other people I used Reflector as a young sire,because of his pedigree. There wasn't an index system in place at that time.
However... when it did arrive all the top breeders with their minus bulls acted as if the russians had just nuked us.
Reflector was a much better production bull than Crisscross,Fond Hope, Thornlea, Ultimate, and many others.
|
|
9/4/2004, 17:16
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 659
Karma: 4 (+4/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Talking on the new poll I believe the average replacement rate in the U.S. right now is around 30%.
|
|
10/4/2004, 1:30
|
|
shilt79
VG89
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 132
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Actually, the current data suggest that the average cull rates in the US are at or slightly above 34%.
|
|
10/4/2004, 3:27
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 566
Karma: 12 (+12/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Ron- Reflector did have a great pedigee. He was a Gold Medal Sire. There were, of course, poorer milk bulls than he. There may not have been an milk index at the time, but Reflector had a milk proof.
In 1962 he had 193 dtrs with 212 records,(records are Mature Equivalent) averaging 14295m 3.76% 535f. He had 167 dtrs with 181 records who had tested dams, averaging 14353m 3.76% 539f. The 167 dams had 603 records averaging 14628m 3.70% 541f. So Reflector's HIR proof was -276m +.02% -2f.
His type proof: 220 dtrs BAA 103.2 Ave Score 81.4. 220 Dams BAA 102.9 Ave Score 82.6. HIR Type Proof: Difference in Expectency +1.75.
At that time bull studs bought by Prefix, all the bulls, good or bad from Pabst, Gray View, Crescent Beauty, Wis, Clyde Hill, Carnation, Bond Havin, Glenafton, Osborndale, all the famous herds. When a bull went to a stud he was there as a young sire on up until people quit using him, no wait and see.
With the introduction of herdmate difference, it was discovered that a bull's daughters in one herd tended to have a simular plus or minus for milk in all the other herds in which he had daughters. It was the first time a bull's daughter's real milking ability could be accurately determined. All daughters could be used, not just those with tested dams.
For the first time a good milk bull could be spotted, and the old prefix method was gone. Those old established breeders who had monopolized the bull stud business were no longer called upon for bulls, unless they actually had some good ones, and most didn't.
|
|
10/4/2004, 3:28
|
|
shilt79
VG89
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 132
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
We bred a cow for a flush yesterday to Astre. An EX Reflector that makes 9 generations of EX. Think the studs would be interested in a bull?? I won't hold my breath! (Too bad we couldn't find any Crisscross semen!!!)
Last edited by shilt79, 10/4/2004, 4:06
|
|
10/4/2004, 4:05
|
|
FiringOnAllFour
Ex97
Cyborg
Global user
Registered: 01-2004
Location: Northern Ireland
Posts: 1839
Karma: 41 (+41/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Big Bird.
I was supporting Mark's point that there actually IS a difference in milk yield of high and low milk bulls, which Indiesview disputes.
I certainly am not happy with a calving interval of 530 days, but when she still gives 35 kg at drying off, the blow is softened somewhat. I have had other lesser milkers equally hard to get in calf, and they could end up giving less than half that milk at drying off.
Has no one else seen this then?
PS The earlier calved Journalist has had two failed services so far.
|
|
10/4/2004, 11:19
|
|
ronflatness
.
Global user
Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 248
Karma: -6 (+1/-7)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
I've been saying that for 30 years 
|
|
11/4/2004, 15:08
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1329
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
SPERRIN- I don't think there are two camps per say, even though it may seem that way. We all like them to milk. What bugs some, is when you get that big show cow, and she milks like heck, no index comes with it unless, she is from one of the very top TPI,LPI bulls. Now how many top show cows, can anyone think of that came from there, in the last 7-10 yrs. It is possable, but those showy cows tend to come more from 100-200 TPI,LPI list.(how evil) I'm not anti index, it does make money, for those in marketing, and sales, but its the weight it carrys, for A.Is that bothers me.
|
|
11/4/2004, 18:31
|
|
ronflatness
.
Global user
Registered: 04-2004
Posts: 248
Karma: -6 (+1/-7)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Many,many..Skychief,Integrity,Blackstar and Highlight,Jed,and Storm dtrs.
All are old dead bulls that were much higher at one time amd are still over +1046 TPI(Jed).I think Integtity is dead.
|
|
11/4/2004, 20:28
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 3062
Karma: 33 (+33/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Previous poll results
Everyone wants profitable cows. There are differences of opinion on what makes a profitable cow and how to achieve this.
Should someone whose main output is milk have the same ideal cow as someone whose output comes from both milk and stock sales?
Should the ideal cow for a 50 cow herd be the same as that of a 500 cow herd?
Does the sire of a cow have the same impact in a mating as the cow family behind the cow?
Does the high yielding heifer always stay ahead of it's herdmates, or do different bloodlines mature at different rates?
Had a few drinks lunchtime and have been looking for the answer to life, the universe and everything during afternoon milking.
|
|
11/4/2004, 20:31
|
|
click here to give a full reply or use the box below for a quick reply
Page: 1 2 3 4
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 1/12/2009, 13:06
|
|
|
