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howie32
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Location: Michigan, USA
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Re: US Election 2008
quote:
triday1 wrote:
Your union bankrupted the company, so get the union to help you not the rest of the country to bail out 3 companies that can't make money even when they actually try.
quote]
You should try living in Michigan with a bunch of theses idiots. The UAW has single handedly ruined Michigan's economy. I get so sick of listening to their members whine about not making enough money. They have been grossly overpaid for years, yet they constantly want more.
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24/11/2008, 14:35
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Jeash
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Re: US Election 2008
It is clear that the Europeans don't understand the US tax code. Not only are wealthy individuals going to get taxed more if they make 250k, but a vast majority of small/family businesses will get taxed more too. Small businesses are taxed at the same rate as individuals. If these businesses are going to see their costs increase through increased taxation they will either pass that on to the consumer or cut costs in other areas. Which probably means cutting jobs or benefits. Big business is in the news but the American economy runs on small businesses.
On income redistribution, the American economy became the envy of the world because we award hard work and ingenuity through the chance of aquiring wealth. Extreme income redistribution negates that
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24/11/2008, 17:19
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Jeash
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Re: US Election 2008
The equality of opportunity has increased not decreased. In the US if you are willing to work hard, and educate yourself you can rise to the top. I have friends from college that grew up in some of the worst ghettos in the US, they worked hard in highschool, went to college and are now quite succesful. These are not kids that were born with a silver spoon in their mouth. If they can rise up and make it then anybody can. The problem is that too many people expect a handout and give up if they dont get it. Look at Obama, the result of a teenage pregnancy from a mixed race.
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24/11/2008, 18:06
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Buckeye
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Re: US Election 2008
quote:
alan a wrote:
i agree, the US has been built on 'The American Dream.'
But, firstly we haven't actually seen numbers from Obama that could be described as 'Extreme income redistribution.' In the 70s in the UK we had a top tax bracket that was over 90%. That is Extreme.
Also, the 'equal chance for all' that underpins the American Dream had been eroded for decades.
Probably that equality of opportunity never truly existed, but it is further from reality today than it has ever been.
Wow! I can not disagree with you more than what you just said. If you are a Black American that shows any aptitude or motivation you are golden. Jobs line up and fall from the skies. Going to college is easier now than it ever was, especially if you are a minority, priority scholarships, and in some cases priority admissions. When I was in school I remember ABS Global interviewing a minority candidate that did not know the first thing about cattle genetics. I told him about the company and what they did and he was terrified about what he had signed up to interview for. Not because of the people, because of the nature of the business. "Selling cow sperm!"
Just because you get into school, doesn't mean you get a diploma. Diplomas are earned, not given.
Kids born on the wrong side of the tracks? What are most kids from dairy farms, especially during times when price is way down? Get a job, get a loan, earn a scholarship. Not everyone has to be a computer design expert, mechanical engineer, or doctor. There are tons of successful people who are general contractors, mechanics, and secretaries. This country is full of trade schools, and apprenticeship opportunities.
Up until the collapse of the sub prime sector, minorities were given priority lending because of government policy.
I have said it before in this thread: Go to school, don't do drugs, don't be a pregnant teenager, show up at work. It isn't that freaking complicated.
Maybe the US dairy producers on here are a little jaded, because we know if we don't work at it, we don't make any money. When we see people with their hands out, for reasons that make us sick, we get mad. A perfect example of this is Hurricane Ike that hit Texas this fall. The damage was worse than Katrina, but because the victims were not Black people that failed to listen to what they were told, the media doesn't care.
Tiger Woods just had his sponsorship deal with GM ended. More of the white man keeping the black man down? What is a poor black man to do?
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Buckeye seems like a one man wrecking crew out to rid the world of injustice. ----- Mayjay
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24/11/2008, 19:22
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alan a
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Re: US Election 2008
I have said it before in this thread: Go to school, don't do drugs, don't be a pregnant teenager, show up at work. It isn't that freaking complicated.
And don't get sick. Don't have a close relative that gets sick.
On average it costs over $25,000 dollars per year for room, board and tuition at the top colleges in the USA.
As I said, it is not about ethnicity, but opportunity.
That college education is almost beyond the dreams of an inner city black kid, a kid from a small mid-west farm or anyone else without a lot of backing. If anything goes wrong, like a sick parent or sibling, that college dream is impossible.
In the UK we are slowly getting to the position where a University education is going to become the preserve of the wealthy. Only the very best and luckiest of working class kids will get a chance.
I don't think we will agree on this, so I am going to concentrate on talking about cows for a while.
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Alan Armstrong
Western Farm Enterprises
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25/11/2008, 15:48
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Jeash
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Re: US Election 2008
Alan, thats the cost of a private college. You can go to a good state school like Michigan, Purdue, Ohio State, Texas, or any of the California schools for ten thousand including room and board. If you are a minority, you are almost guaranteed a scholarship which cheapens it. If you apply yourself at any of these schools you can get a good job in a normal economy. I went to Purdue and my friends are working a variety of jobs. Everything from Wall Street to the CIA.
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25/11/2008, 16:31
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howie32
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Re: US Election 2008
There is plenty of opportunity in this country. The problem is, too many people want to have everything handed to them and not have to work for anything. Obviously some people have it better than others, it will always be that way. However, minorities here have a distinct advantage. My sister applied to the University of Michigan and got rejected. A friend of hers, who happened to be a minority, got in even though her grades and test scores were much lower. Like Jeash said, there are also plenty of scholarships for minorities. Still haven't figured out why it is ok to have scholarships just for certain minority groups. I can't imagine anyone could get away with having a scholarship only for white males. Oh, and no I don't have a real problem with minorities, but I do get sick of hearing all of the complaining sometimes. 
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25/11/2008, 17:25
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Buckeye
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Re: US Election 2008
quote:
alan a wrote:
I have said it before in this thread: Go to school, don't do drugs, don't be a pregnant teenager, show up at work. It isn't that freaking complicated.
And don't get sick. Don't have a close relative that gets sick.
On average it costs over $25,000 dollars per year for room, board and tuition at the top colleges in the USA.
As I said, it is not about ethnicity, but opportunity.
That college education is almost beyond the dreams of an inner city black kid, a kid from a small mid-west farm or anyone else without a lot of backing. If anything goes wrong, like a sick parent or sibling, that college dream is impossible.
In the UK we are slowly getting to the position where a University education is going to become the preserve of the wealthy. Only the very best and luckiest of working class kids will get a chance.
I don't think we will agree on this, so I am going to concentrate on talking about cows for a while.
Like Jeash said those numbers are for private schools, and out of state tuition.
No one said a college education is the only way to be successful in this country. That is what really ticks me off. I know plenty of people making fantastic money that are diesel mechanics. They took apprenticeships out of high school, and now have very nice lifestyles. People still need to pick up trash, fix cars, take care of heating and air conditioning, be electricians, and plumbers. Why does a 4+ year degree at a college, have to be the only avenue to success? My guess is there are many people on this very board that are very successful, without college educations.
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Buckeye seems like a one man wrecking crew out to rid the world of injustice. ----- Mayjay
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25/11/2008, 18:10
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Eryl Vet
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Re: US Election 2008
This is an incredibly complex subject, and there are elements from everyone's points that I agree with. there is no doubt that both in the UK and the US those from lower socio-economic backgrounds are at an incredible disadavantage. This is related to money, education and aspiration NOT to their ethnicity.
The problem is how to solve this. if you give people financial support without education or aspiration you simple create a section of society living on handouts. In the deprived areas of the UK there are third and fourth generations of people who have lived on the dole, or incapacity benefit, and never worked. Similarly, if you give them aspiration without the right education and financial support you end up with an angry, frustrated section of society who cannot achieve their aims.
positive discrimination as jeash and Howie talk about creates anger and frustration, and in my mind is papering over the problem without addressing the root cause.
Somehow society has to give children from diadvantaged backgrounds the opportunity to have the same education as those from more privileged backgrounds, whilst at the same time motivating their parents and giving them the opportunity for education and/or apprenticeships as adults. Someone has to come up with a scheme where to receive state benefits you have to be seen to be striving to get yourself into a better situation. The jobseeker's allowance in the UK is a feeble attempt at this - whenever you advertise a job you get 20 or 30 completely disinterested, unqualified applicants who are just applying for jobs that they have no hope of getting, just to prove they are still seeking work and thus eligible to continue claiming benefit.
PS After reading Buckeye's post, posted simltaneously with mine, I should stress that education to me does not mean a degree or diploma. There is no point in putting a square peg in a round hole, for many a vocational apprenticeship, or on-the-job training is far more appropriate.
Last edited by Eryl Vet, 25/11/2008, 18:23
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25/11/2008, 18:10
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JeffNYRC
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Re: US Election 2008
When you sum it all up, College really isn't needed. Figure this. What do you gain when you go to college, for agriculture? College doesn't teach you how to raise cattle, breed cattle, or even market cattle. There are plenty of people who do well without college. There are plenty of people who go to college, only to come back and end up doing something completely different. There are plenty who want to become a lawyer, and they end up working at a mill, or some other job. If you actually think about what a lawyer does, and consider the fact they dont know the laws by heart. All that college "qualifies" them, yet their job is actually easy, and anyone with a brain can do it.
Does accounting in collge help you manage the books better? I doubt it. There are plenty of people who balance their own books without an accounting degree. How about a mechanic? I know of a kid who is good at turning wrenches, he quit college and is working along side those who did go to college.
The examples are limitless. Heck look at meteorologists, they go off to school, usually its 4 years of college, and 2 years of another school, etc etc. They come in, and cant get a forecast right. Forecast models are not hard to read, and alot of that knowledge is aquired through experience. Funny how I manage to get the forecast right more than they do, and I dont have a degree..
There is people that are shallow enough that if asked "hey did you go to college?". You answer "no". Some wont give you the time of day. Now I never had that, but there are people that lower their expectations FOR you because of that.
What it is, is effort. If you give it an effort, in anything you do. Usually you can succeed. You have to however have it in your mind that you want to succeed. If you dont, you will fail.
But back to the economy. What people need to wake up to is the fact that a collapse is going to happen, I hope it doesn't, but the writing is on the wall. There is a report on the drudge report, showing that an economist in Russia has seen the collapse of the US coming for a long time. He had made this prediction back when there was a 2 trillion dollar debt back in the 80's-90's. He said that if you think about it, 3 of the 5 BIGGEST banks in America have vanished. There are two left, and those are hanging by a thread. You have the dow that is setting records by gains and falls. You have all of this money that the government is trying to inject into the system that IS NOT WORKING. Paulson claims it has made things better, he is full of #&*!.
This coming year is going to be interesting, when you consider what is going to happen. You have two more packages planned for Obama. You have one planned to go forth on innaguration day, then another for next spring. There is a planned 7+ trillion to buy half of the bad mortgages. Doesn't that tell you something? Thats how idiotic those companies have been. I can understand people spending beyond their means. But it is up to the companies to say NO, you dont have it. Instead they loaned anything to anyone, which has caused this big mess. Corporate GREED. These big corporations should be left to fail. After the dust settles, you pick up the pieces, and LEARN by your mistakes and start over, with the mistakes in mind.
Some say "oh its all doom and gloom, it wont happen". I feel bad for you, because not having it in mind that it WILL happen, not IF, its now When does it get bad. Now we all hope things do get better, maybe things will pan out, things will improve. Big problem though, OBAMA.
I know some outside of this country see him differently, and even those within see him as being fine. Problem is, he is a socialist. What those that support that idea do not understand, the system has been built around those at the top, those at the bottom. If you begin to take away from those at the top, it will hurt many. When you begin to increase taxes at a time when taxes are like adding gas to the fire, your going to cause problems. It makes me wonder if the local sale was because of the fear of capital gains taxes, and it also makes you wonder if some of these other dispersals are partly because of this. Because Buckeye did put that aspect into light.
Either way, here is the link to what that Russian said. Some will say "baa its all bs". But your likely in denial.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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25/11/2008, 19:19
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alan a
Ex96
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Re: US Election 2008
College is not necessarily about the bit of paper at the end. To my mind it is about the experience and 'life skills' picked up.
Most people who go to college (in the US, university here) will change career between starting and finally settling into a job.
However, learning to look after yourself, balance your own budget (unlike our government), deal with strange ideas / cultures / foods/ responsibility, is invaluable in later life.
having a degree doesn't make you smart, or experienced. That is something it usually takes graduates a few years to work out, experience outweighs alot of paper.
But, goign to university was one of the, if not the, best thing I ever did, and I will try to encourage my kids to go to uni, as far away from home as possible.
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Alan Armstrong
Western Farm Enterprises
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25/11/2008, 21:31
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skipp
VG87
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Re: US Election 2008
quote:
alan a wrote:
College is not necessarily about the bit of paper at the end. To my mind it is about the experience and 'life skills' picked up.
Most people who go to college (in the US, university here) will change career between starting and finally settling into a job.
However, learning to look after yourself, balance your own budget (unlike our government), deal with strange ideas / cultures / foods/ responsibility, is invaluable in later life.
having a degree doesn't make you smart, or experienced. That is something it usually takes graduates a few years to work out, experience outweighs alot of paper.
But, goign to university was one of the, if not the, best thing I ever did, and I will try to encourage my kids to go to uni, as far away from home as possible.
well said alan. i just graduated this spring and it was the best 2 years of my life. The people i met, the friends i made and the memories will last a lifetime. college/university is much more that just getting a piece of paper it is preparing you for the rest of your life.
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Milking 50 cows in tie stall barn- Herd Classification 10VG - 35GP - 8G Milk Average 9285 - 3.8% 329 - 3.3% 289(195-190-197) kgs
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26/11/2008, 3:03
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Jeash
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Re: …
Obama has now proven that he is in way over his head and Wall Street is taking the necessary actions to save their own tail by selling off. Obama and his crew has no clue what to do so they resort to the old Democratic stand-by of tax and spend. Oh and lets not forget about him getting bent over by the Russians in foreign policy. Some of us were smart enough to see this coming.
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6/3/2009, 20:30
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foxleigh
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True blue dinky-di maverick
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…
Im a bit amused about how obama neutralized hilary.
Im also amused (cynically) about the withdrawel in iraq and the stepup in afgahnistan.The russians were there for something like 15 years and basically walked away because they could not control the locals.I think iraq might turn out to be a picnic compared to afghanistan.
but what do I know I only milk cows.
I wonder if it hadnt been cheaper for everyone alive to be given a million bucks each and all subsidies,bailouts,grants.allowences etc etc were cut out for a period of time.Then give generous tax breaks for investment in to inferstructure ie.hospitals,roads,schools,dams etc via gaureented bonds.
our govt has also thrown money @ everything bar the kitchen sink.If we get any Im saving it because my gut feeling is it's gonna get a whole lot worse before it gets better.(my sister thinks this is hilareuos because Im considered the family spendthrift/worlds biggest bargain hunter who never pays full price if she can help it)
scuse spelling.
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6/3/2009, 20:35
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JonnyLungs
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I can see the apprehension with Obama's plans but when the other side of the aisle up until recently claimed this economic downturn was all in our heads..... I really don't put any stock in what they have to say either.
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6/3/2009, 23:50
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