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ilander
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!Red Goldwyn Sells!
March 16 2007 at Vanhaven Auctions in Uxbridge,ontario I will be selling a
sept 06 RED Braedale Goldwyn.
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2/2/2007, 1:21
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jed deb
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…
What is the cow family behind your calf?
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2/2/2007, 2:59
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Christof
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Hi Ilander,
please give the full name of the calf.
Regards,
Christof
Baldus Polled Holsteins
http://www.holsteinzuechter.de
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2/2/2007, 7:57
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howie32
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Since when is Goldwyn a red carrier? You might want to blood type that calf.
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2/2/2007, 14:15
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Kristin1
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Just to refresh your memories - ilander has said on this board that he is the breeder of Mutant, and has a cow family in his herd that are carriers of the Variant Red gene(s). I'm assuming this calf descends from this family, so even though her sire is not a red carrier she can be red.
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2/2/2007, 14:36
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I'm behind on my registrations, so the calf isn't done yet.Her dam is Marktwain Lee Diana #CANF10576178.She is a red Lee,you can look her up at Holstein Canada.The calf is a Goldwyn and is red.She does carry the variant red gene.Not from the same family as Mutant.
Mutant is over $250000 in semen sales and still a young sire.What is the earning potenial from this red Goldwyn???
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3/2/2007, 3:22
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
There is no need to blood type this calf, but you should DNA test the red goldwyn for *RC, then she will be worth about 50% more than a black one of the same pedigree. If she has no *RC she is worth the price of any other black goldwyn with a like pedigree. Not to knock your cow but with no LPI to speak of the earning potential of her offspring is very, very limited. You would have been better off to not have her last 2 records showing, that hurts a ped big time. Have you tested the lee for *RC? What about the Lee`s Mutant?
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3/2/2007, 5:32
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Canuk , good to see your still an expert on everything.You are right,I should have cheated and hid the last two records the cow made while she was sick,but it is what is.I guess you won't be bidding on the calf.Are you saying a B&W brother of Mutant would have sold $100000 in semen?Too bad I beefed him.
The calf will sell and we will let the market decide her value.
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3/2/2007, 15:02
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I would bid on your calf if she has *RC, but looking at her ped the probability of that is about 10%. Funny a cow can be sick at 4yrs produce 12,000 LBS, and calve in again within 12 months, sick cows don`t tend to do that?? Will you test the calf for *RC, or is it too risky for you to not cheat, and tell the sale staff, there is NO red gene in this calf?? To me this is no differant than sexing embryo`s, and selling only the males to some unsuspecting buyer.
Its not nice to advertise your calf and ask what her earning potential is, then complain when an honest answer is given.
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3/2/2007, 16:15
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Just looking for what is exspected when you advertise a calf that has no red gene, as red. Not my intention to get personal but it sure doesn`t seem right. What do others think??
I totally admit that it is interesting, but it should be buyer beware.
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3/2/2007, 20:38
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foxleigh
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!Red Goldwyn Sells!
what color is the calf?(stupid question I know but there are shades of red too!)
does she have any blac hair? spots?
can we have a pic?
I thought red refered to coat coLor and that RC meant that she carried the red gene for coat color - am I wrong?
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3/2/2007, 20:51
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
The calf is a beautiful red,no black hairs or spots.I will try a picture soon but have limited skills posting pictures.you are right Foxleigh,red refers to the coat color of the animal.The transmitting codes are found in the secondary codes(*RC;*VRC).
Now Canuck,you should know this as I assume your are a Canadian breeder.Red orR&W is a primary code that refers to coat color only.I am totally correct in advertizing this animal as RED.You should also know that the value in this animal is in producing RED animals from non red carring sires.
Now for the cow.She was purchased at the end of her 4yr lactation.She contracted a virus at the sale and became extremely sick when moved home.She almost died.She somehow managed to hold her calf.Spent all of her dry period sick,calved in a mess and never recovered fully until She was dried off again.We wanted the genetics so we chose to flush the cow and not Breed her back till now.
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3/2/2007, 22:06
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I have no problem with your answer, but I certainly do not agree (if i may)that a RED calf with no *RC should be advertised as "RED", for me its the same as those calling their "black/reds" RED. Not totally up to speed but assume this calf will be coded *BC for black carrier, and *VRC for variant red carrier, and to get *RC you would need to test her. I hope you get $10,000 for her, I have no problem with that, as long as the buyer KNOWS EXACTLY what he is getting.
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4/2/2007, 0:37
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Big Bird
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Ilander, if someone asked to you 'come and buy my calf', and told you that the dam's records were a little shot due to illness, and by the way they hadn't got round to registering it in 5 months, would you be rushing to buy???
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4/2/2007, 14:08
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I see your point on the records but don't get the problem with the registration.I hope to have her registered soon.The problem being my lack of equipment and skills for internet registration.I now have upgraded my computer and purchased a digital camera.Thought she would be registered by now but having trouble sending pictures.
Speaking of pictures,can anyone help with posting pictures on here?
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4/2/2007, 15:04
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Canuk,I too hope the buyer knows what they are getting.A red animal that will produce red calves(50%)when mated with any sire.I think testing her and finding *RC would only confuse the situation.While you don't agree with her being advertized as red,she is red and will transmit red.What is your opinion of Cloverlands Skylar Cherry-red being registered and promoted as a red but found to carring *BR?
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4/2/2007, 15:39
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I do not see where you get *BR from Skyler Cherry, or any of her offspring not related to Storm.
I also find it difficult to call an animal red if she is not homusagus, in other words you get black 50% of time when mated with any sire, it is important to remember that this is a supression gene. Yes it is impossable to not call her red, when she is physically red, but she can not transmit this color, like any normal red animal, (again her red gene is a supression gene).
I can see why you don`t want to test her for *RC, as it would almost be a waste of money, but it would tell the buyer EXACTLY what he is getting. Would that not be in your best interest later?
I totally agree that this gene is interesting, who doesn`t, but the confusion around it will be crazy, especally when you get it mixed up with "TRUE" red a few generations away.
Last edited by canuk, 4/2/2007, 16:19
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4/2/2007, 16:12
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Any time a black calf is born from any mating the Variant red is gone. If you breed this calf to a red bull, 50% will be variant red, with 1 black gene,and 1 red gene.
50% will be black with *RC.
No offspring from this calf will be what is known as "true" red.
The variant red gene is ***NOT*** dominate, if it was all calves would be red.
Ilander- the dam of this calf, is she still totally RED, or has she turned black with maturity?
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4/2/2007, 17:22
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Big Bird
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
quote:
ilander wrote:
I see your point on the records but don't get the problem with the registration.I hope to have her registered soon.The problem being my lack of equipment and skills for internet registration.I now have upgraded my computer and purchased a digital camera.Thought she would be registered by now but having trouble sending pictures.
Speaking of pictures,can anyone help with posting pictures on here?
In the UK registrations should be in by 45 days. I think its then a fine from 46 to 60 days, and after that you need a DNA test.
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4/2/2007, 19:14
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foxleigh
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!Red Goldwyn Sells!
tral la la we can registar animals at any age and I usually do it once a year on account of the fact that I occassionally lose a calf at 3 months and the cash flow in the autumn is much better.The hfaa randomly selects animals to be dnad and only ets MUST be done.
So no I dont have a problem with late registrations and if it says in the catalogue thast the animal was sick beside her ow record and all the other records are "normal" and she has reasonible test and PIs at least herd average then I dont have a problem with that either.
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4/2/2007, 20:28
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synergy1
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!Red Goldwyn Sells!
we have 90 days here before late penalties start.
Good luck with your calf ilander
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4/2/2007, 20:30
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
The Cherry-Red cow has been tested.She is E+/e(r/Br).Also some other prominent R&W cows have tested the same way.Check the Red andWhite dairy cattle association web site.They seem to transmit as "true red" but are not in genotype.
Variant Red is not a supression gene.For this to be possible all Variant Reds would have to be *RC.(The variant gene would supress the dominate black gene allowing the recessive red gene to be expressed.)This is why it is referred to as a dominate because when it is passed it dominates over the genes transmitted from the E locus.
We have much to learn about red.Not as simple as it once seemed.The variant red is already mixed in with the other reds.I suspect it will be dealt much the same as telstar red,in time it will become understood by those who are truely interested.
Bigbird, I am now accustom to sending DNA at the time of registation as they will question the parentage.I guess I will also have them coat color test this one.
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4/2/2007, 20:45
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howie32
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
I don't see the big issue with the registration. I don't like to register too young in case something happens to a calf.
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4/2/2007, 20:49
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Mooramba
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Why all the fuss about color. Surely the main job for any dairy cow is to milk. I never heard of a factory paying more for milk from different colors or breeds. Is this demand for color any more than a fad?
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5/2/2007, 8:19
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Mooramba- You ask a very good quiestion, and I believe you are right to a certain degree.
Reds are just a fad to many, but there are also many breeds with red color that do not consider it a fad.
Ilander - Pretty hard to convince someone that red vr is dominate, when its bred to red, the result is 50% black. You don`t need a degree in genetics to know the word Dominate does not belong with the VR gene.
The RWDCA web site is a good referance point for anyone interested, and perhaps the most knowaleable person in regards to R&W`s is responsable for whats on there.
Perhaps those REALLY interested should give them a call and ask their thoughts on VR, their answer would not help future semen sales on Mutant.
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5/2/2007, 19:34
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turtle2
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!Red Goldwyn Sells!
What I think Canuck is trying to point out is that someone buying a "red&white" calf needs to realize why its red, before bidding. The effect of a "Mutant red" black carrier vs a double recessive red&white calf on both breeding potental as well as earning money other than milk sales might be great.
Last edited by turtle2, 6/2/2007, 6:19
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6/2/2007, 6:17
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ilander
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Canuk,the *vr gene is dominate WHEN it is passed on.The black offspring of a*vr red do not have a *vr gene.This is just the same as an e/e red not having a black gene to dominate over the red.I encourage anyone interested in reds to chat with John Carpenter from The RED and White Dairy Cattle Association.I have had many talks with him and have found him very helpful.Their veiws aren't the same as the Canadian red club.As always people should be well informed and know what they are buying.
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6/2/2007, 12:03
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canuk
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Re: !Red Goldwyn Sells!
Interesting you say "as always people should be well informed and know what they are buying" Yet you also say testing your calf for *RC is not necessary.
Mutant is advertised as - "get red calves from black cows" Yet you don`t also say get black calves from red cows.
You say all black offspring of *vr, no longer carry *vr (which is correct)- If your red calf with what you call her "dominate" red gene is bred to red bulls 50% of her offspring will be Black, with no *vr, and no *RC.
Any RED cow I owned when bred to black had offspring with at least 1 *RC gene, so the RED is still there. No I do not have a degree in genetics, but to say these are the same is not correct.
For me this is all I need to know, for anyone else BUYER BEWARE.
Last edited by canuk, 6/2/2007, 13:34
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6/2/2007, 13:22
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