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Big Bird
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Kristin1
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Anyway, today we bought 2 daughters of his VG-87 full sister, Regancrest Eland Eden. A Goldwyn and a Pronto. She would have to be one of Eland's better daughters and flushes quite well, with at least 12 Goldwyn daughters and many more by other bulls. The Goldwyn is only 8 months, but I'd be interested in suggestions for what you would use on her for a possible virgin flush.
13/11/2008, 5:59

Posal
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Use Shottle...

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Posal: Home of Royalist, Donay, Olimpia.
191 VG and 14 EX

13/11/2008, 8:49

Smurf4
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  If i were you i would wait until January and take your pick of the Oman sons. Or use Jeeves or Sandy now.

Last edited by Big Bird, 13/11/2008, 10:14

13/11/2008, 10:13

POSAL
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Shottle...

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Posal: Home of Royalist, Donay, Olimpia.
191 VG and 14 EX

14/11/2008, 15:16

Scotty Mac4
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

i would think shottle would be a your best bet but i heard he aint a real good flush bull for some people.

....Why use Oman sons? Oman wasnt any good

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Clearland Holsteins: 1 ME, 1 EX, 24 VG, 32 GP, 4G

17/11/2008, 1:40

Mayjay
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Dead man walking!

17/11/2008, 4:15

SanHaven
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

i disagree scotty mac. i think its a great cross... Oman, Eland and Encore all together and youd have plenty of fire wood for the winter

17/11/2008, 12:08

Smurf4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Are you milking Oman's Scotty or is he just not good enough for you?

17/11/2008, 13:13

Scotty Mac4
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

you hit the nail on the head.

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Clearland Holsteins: 1 ME, 1 EX, 24 VG, 32 GP, 4G

17/11/2008, 16:58

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

I tend to agree with scotty on this one. This is a high type family. Oman isn't the bull for this situation. Shottle would be good. Or maybe Baxter?

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

17/11/2008, 17:49

Scotty Mac4
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Exactly

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Clearland Holsteins: 1 ME, 1 EX, 24 VG, 32 GP, 4G

17/11/2008, 18:09

Smurf4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Depends on what you want at the end of it i suppose, maybe you lads just want something to put in a tie-stall barn so you can admire it.
If kristin wants a working cow Oman's the one.

17/11/2008, 18:41

Scotty Mac4
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

If you haven't noticed, there isn't any signs of the shottles not working. And with the shottles i'm pretty sure there wouldnt be any difference between a tie-stall or free-stall.

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Clearland Holsteins: 1 ME, 1 EX, 24 VG, 32 GP, 4G

17/11/2008, 19:33

Smurf4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

If you hadnt noticed combining Shottle with Goldwyn and Eland further back would leave you with some poor fertility numbers. Shottle -2.7, Goldwyn -2.9 and Eland -.4. But maybe such a trivial matter as cow fertility is irrelevant when the cow looks good. Time to breed some common sence back into the Holstien.

18/11/2008, 0:02

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

A family like this is very marketable. In all honesty, forget about health traits and ask yourself what will help market this family. Getting a GP cow that milks and breeds back easy or a VG cow by shottle or something that has some style.

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

18/11/2008, 2:39

Craigalea
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

This post is a little disturbing for me actually (im not having a go at you LRG, just the theory)...

So you use a -ve dpr bull, so she is ok, breeds on etc. More "marketable" bulls later and the resulting progeny are slower to breed back.

The people that used o-man and other "health trait" bulls that were considered "un-marketable" on major cow familys the animals went VG after a lactation or two more than the fancier ones and their resulting progeny by the marketable bulls you join them to next breed back better last longer...

What would be considered more marketable then?

Back on topic, I would go for O-Man emoticon

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18/11/2008, 4:52

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

I'm not trying to start an argument. I know we have different views on this topic. There have always been arguments about this topic. We have diddering views and obviously the final decision is Kristen's. I just feel that if you are trying to build pedigree and make a more marketable family that using more of a type bull is a more reliable bet. In theory, for your herd Oman would work great, but you are taking a risk that you may end up with a hole in the pedigree. If you take the chance and get a VG Oman, then you're good to go. You can go anywhere from there. A bull like shottle is more likely to build the pedigree.

Forget about the numbers in the proofs for a second. Oman has 399 classified daughters. 16 of these are VG. That means there is about a 4% chance of having a VG Oman. Shottle on the other hand has only 105 classified daughters. 44 of these are VG. So you have about a 42% chance with shottle. Shottle has almost three times as many VG's as oman with 1/4 of the daughters. These numbers are from Holstein Canada.

This is just my opinion. Like I said, we'd all do something different if we were in this situation, but ultimately, the decision is Kristen's. And chances are she'll want to use something from Semex. emoticon

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

18/11/2008, 15:38

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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Kristen, why dont you do a mixed flush shottle and oman and let us know the results in 4 years or so. On a serious note perhaps looking at one of the newer outside sons that excel in health traits would be interesting. My only worry there is getting too much slope to the rump with outside and goldwyn in the pedigree, granted i have never seen your heifer. Either way shottle or oman are going to throw a courser bone, and tighter rib imo which the oustide sons may do as well. Perhaps the alexander bull would make a nice cross. high type good milk and components. whatever you do use what u are comfortable with and stick by your decision.

18/11/2008, 17:03

Scotty Mac4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Everyone is making good points and i'm not trying to argue but you have to take in consideration this animal is not milking yet so if by chance the heifer dies before she reaches a laction i think shottle would be a better cross in the long run to cover the cost of the animal if she by chance dies.
Since she is a virgin heifer the bull i would choose wouldn't be based on one health trait.
I would choose shottle over oman because type influences buyer's decsions a lot, breed the type of cow other breeders would want to buy.
The last thing you want is a hole in the pedigree.
But kristin it your decision your the one investing in the re design family.

LRG- i like the sounds of Baxter too for a flush

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18/11/2008, 17:29

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Baxter would open her up a bit if needed I think, but it won't clean up the bone at all.

We have had this argument so may times before, and are bound to have it again numerous times. You just have to remember, that everybody on here is aiming for a slightly different end breeding goal. You may not agree with it, but if the person is still making money, then why argue. I guess I argue myself some too, but that makes this forum interesting. So many different backgrounds, and different breeding goals, but we are all here for advice from different backgrounds.

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

18/11/2008, 17:36

JEB12
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Jeeves would be marketable and would help her DPR. The Baxters I have seen were pretty clean boned, but maybe thats not typical?

18/11/2008, 21:11

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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

quote:
LRG wrote:

Forget about the numbers in the proofs for a second. Oman has 399 classified daughters. 16 of these are VG. That means there is about a 4% chance of having a VG Oman. Shottle on the other hand has only 105 classified daughters. 44 of these are VG. So you have about a 42% chance with shottle. Shottle has almost three times as many VG's as oman with 1/4 of the daughters. These numbers are from Holstein Canada.

I suspect that is rather an unfair comparison. I would suggest that Shottle's 105 daughters are off a very different group of cows than Oman's 399. Approximately 80% of Shottle's daughters are ETs. Kristin may well have roughly a 40% chance of a VG with Shottle but I would suggest that she would have a better than 4% chance of a VG Oman given the quality of the cow family in question.

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60 Homebred cows Annual Average 9800 4.2. 3.3
1EX 32VG 16GP 10G 1F 1P

18/11/2008, 21:41

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Yes, there probably is greater than a 4% chance. These are just the numbers I had to work with. But, the older Oman's have had another lactation to get classified. Shottle's are all first calvers.

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

18/11/2008, 22:23

Rags2Riches4cows
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

quote:
LRG wrote:

I just feel that if you are trying to build pedigree and make a more marketable family that using more of a type bull is a more reliable bet.

I would like to point out 1 cow, A-L-H Destiny, she is a o-man and must be 1 of the most martetable cows in the world right now with about 20 sons in AI and contracts for as many more, plus embryos gone to all major holstein countries. Yes, oman maybe a pedigree risk but my, will it pay off on a pedigree like this if it works.

19/11/2008, 10:09

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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

i think oman is on his way to ruining some good cow familys - It only take one. I like the suggestions of both shottle and baxter. very impressed with both sires but have only seen limited animals. Just for something different and depending how milky the dam of the goldwyn is - try dundee.....please dont use oman.

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19/11/2008, 10:43

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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Shottle!!!

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Posal: Home of Royalist, Donay, Olimpia.
191 VG and 14 EX

19/11/2008, 11:08

Will Richardson
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

Duplex

19/11/2008, 12:56

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

I was going to suggest dundee or goldwyn as long as inbreeding wasn't going to be a fear.

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

19/11/2008, 13:15

Scotty Mac4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

LRG - isnt the heifer kristin wants to flush a goldwyn or you responding to another post?

Very good points Blackred

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19/11/2008, 16:32

LRG
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Re: Regancrest design family - for Kristin

yes scotty. One is a Goldwyn and one is a pronto. They are out of the Dellia family.

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Farm's Holstein Herd: 25 milking and dry. Classification: 10VG 12GP 2G 1F.

My Holstein Herd: 1VG (by Dundee) and 2 Calves (by Fortune and Goldwyn)

19/11/2008, 21:25

Scotty Mac4
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

i know that its just the way the last post looked, it looked like you wanted to flush the goldwyn to goldwyn maybe you wrote it meaning something else haha i dunno

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Clearland Holsteins: 1 ME, 1 EX, 24 VG, 32 GP, 4G

20/11/2008, 0:42

foxleigh
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Regancrest design family - for Kristin

greed will wreak a good heifer quicker that you can say jack robinson..........I myself wouldnt take the risk of flushing a virgin heifer because hormones are fine when they work but......
I would wait for her to get an udder under her and a score and then go from there.
Embryos and progeny from a first calf heifer that has blown her udder off wont be that marketible.
If one is financially dependent on a flush to recupe money faster then one needs to question whether one couldve afforded the heifer in the first place.
Also given oman with his low vg scores and high fertility vs bulls with higher vg scores and lower fertility .........one has to wonder if classification is doing its job .... afterall the theory is the better the type the better the functionality.

21/11/2008, 20:11

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