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foxleigh
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%GP
we got the neighbours dispersal catologue last week and he had used all the skagvale bulls we imported.
while reading the pedigrees we noted that skagvale confidence has 91% GP daus but is -0.1 for overall type and -0.3 for mammery system 66% reliability.
In the same catalogue we note that raider has 93% GP daus and a 995 reliability with OT being +1.4 and MS +1.1
leadoff also has 91% GP and an OT of +1.2 and MS 1.0 numerous other bulls like skychief and astrojet are all over 90%gp and +1
my question is how can a bull have so many GP daus and be minus for type?
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19/5/2004, 22:38
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jiri
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Re: %GP
Skagvale bulls or cows are not main stream breeding it is disqalification for index breeding . For reliability 66% is big value pedigree ( think about index pedigree ) , at Skagvale bulls not have 500 daughters for good reliability and reset pedigree value at his index for type .
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20/5/2004, 9:03
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Bullpen
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Re: %GP
I think also that %GP is heavily dependent on the quality of the herd to start with. Almost any bull will give you almost all GP in some herds whereas even the best type sires in the world could not make some herds average GP.
The overall type figures and udder scores are the scores relative to all other bulls being used at the same time. So if the Raiders outscore the SKagvales in that particular herd at that particular time then Raiders will get higher type scores than Skagvales. We have seen many examples of stock bulls in great herds getting very high percentage GP but not qualifying for high type score because either they did not do as well as other bulls being used at the time or the confidence level was very low or the parentage would not suggest a high type sire until reliability increased to prove otherwise.
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20/5/2004, 11:28
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frodobag
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 Re: %GP
I think you are right in those assumptions. A lot of the type score is based on how well the animal does relative to her herd mates. You can also really see this percentage of GP swing as bulls recieve their proof. Semen is then mated rather than just put on any old cow as test semen was used. Generally it also goes into better herds, so daughters have a better start in life. As the saying goes "They all have mothers!" And the top type bulls in Canada first crop sit at 78% GP or better, whereas the second crop bulls should improve heavily on this.
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23/5/2004, 3:40
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foxleigh
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Re: %GP
these figures came from the HFAA and I dont think they apply just to this herd as all their confidences are either GP or VG
regarding the skagvale bulls, all bar high country were progeny test and all of them have in excess of 200 head registared plus what went into grade herds , some herds used 100 straws of each and have 30 or more daus of each milking, so I think that they have as many if not more daus around than most progeny test bulls.of course we knew that pedigree influence would mean that these bulls will have a minus proof
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23/5/2004, 6:12
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
% GP is a big question !!!
One of the highest bull of the moment,
the Storm son, Titanic, has a low % GP compared to other bulls but He has some really Type indexes.
How is that possible?
I think that people should be able to read pedigrees and understand what a bull is. I hope Titanic is not "The Titanic".
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23/5/2004, 8:01
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frodobag
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Re: %GP
Yes, i agree, the industry as a whole should make more readily available explanations of how type scores are reached. And Titanic as a name did make me think when I was ordering him!!! But, bear in mind, all his use would be in test herds, some of which Good Plus would be the best animals in the herd. Also consider the "difference" in standards of classification for different countries. Canada has been and still is the toughest country for classification
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23/5/2004, 10:34
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frodobag
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Re: %GP
Yes, i agree, the industry as a whole should make more readily available explanations of how type scores are reached. And Titanic as a name did make me think when I was ordering him!!! But, bear in mind, all his use would be in test herds, some of which Good Plus would be the best animals in the herd. Also consider the "difference" in standards of classification for different countries. Canada has been and still is the toughest country for classification
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23/5/2004, 10:35
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
I disagree for the last part of you thread.
Canada is the toughest country for classification only for foreign bulls!!!
Titanic is just a F&L bull.
Do you use to look at bull's daughters pictures before buying and usying a bull?
I do and I will never use a Bull that has that kind of weak daughters, Titanic daughters are from Canada!!! and they are weak anyway !!!
Look how much weak he is!!! a Real "TITANIC"
Titanic Page and Pics
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23/5/2004, 11:01
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
What about Udder Cleft and Depth?
Are they Optionals?
Nice cow family, not the best mate!!!
Mattie G was almost able to destroy my best Type and Udder family.
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23/5/2004, 12:47
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frodobag
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Re: %GP
I have found one thing out with breeding and it is very easy to find reasons why not to use any and every bull out there, sometimes you have to bite the bullet and make a choice. I know why I shouldnt use Titanic and all the others, and you have said why we shouldnt. But who SHOULD we use?!! I am always open to suggestions. And I hear your point on photos, but you cant make decisons soley on that! All cows have a mother, and the bell curve doesnt lie! You need to see ALL daughters before you can make a decision based on that. Thats why all breeding companies strive to get high daughter numbers and high reliability. If you see one daughter of a bull can you tell how good he is? I couldnt really tell you on anything under 20, they may be the best 20 or worst 20!I am no way near clever enough. And certainly not on pictures which at best are adverts to sell semen. And you are a little scathing of Canadian classifiers, they are equally hard on everything, I learnt that in my year out there. The country which suffers from 84itis!
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23/5/2004, 20:00
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
Watching 10 1st crop daughters is more than enought, plus study pedigrees and traits linear.
I am using now
Mtoto, Morty, Allen, Royalist, Outside, Champion. You could breed your whole herd with those bulls.
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23/5/2004, 20:07
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frodobag
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Re: %GP
I bow down to your judging ability. Champion? Will he still be there? Im sure his owner made sure that he had as much chance as any bull to get a good proof, and extreme dairyness, the trait most related to reduced herdlife. Is that the way I need to go? They are nice calves, I agree, and for sure Morty, outside and Mtoto take some getting around. I need to see more Allens, he has the power that the breed needs
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23/5/2004, 21:25
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
With the Bulls I Mentioned, you can mate all your herd, not each cow needs the same bull.
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23/5/2004, 21:32
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
Use him on Mtoto's and You could get a Strong Powerfull Milking Machine.
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23/5/2004, 21:36
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Bullpen
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Re: %GP
Nobody really knows what Champion will be like yet. His proof suggests tall and dairy but average on feet and udder scores. People seem to like the calves but his stable doesn't have a track record yet.
Oh and by the way Will, heres an even better frame bull.
http://www.holstein-uk.org/HolsteinUK/PublicWeb/AnimalData/data/ASMalefs.asp?AnimalID=156876
Last edited by Bullpen, 23/5/2004, 21:42
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23/5/2004, 21:39
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errolston
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Re: %GP
Is Mtoto really so great. I cannot get excited about ours. Too short and thick and feet are soft.
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23/5/2004, 21:45
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
Noway for Mtoto to have soft feet!!!!
Which were their mothers?
Mtotos' could be thick that's why I suggest to use Champion on Mtotos'.
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23/5/2004, 21:53
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errolston
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Re: %GP
The one with the worst feet is from a VG89 Rudolph then EX Tesk then VG F&G Acres Felix.
Another is from a Maplewood Black Advancer (Blackstar x Mark)
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23/5/2004, 22:35
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
Do you think she is good enough?
She is an Mtoto.
Diana
Probably a Rudolph effect?
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23/5/2004, 22:44
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errolston
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Re: %GP
Here in the UK I can only think of one big time Mtoto. I would have expected more high profile daughters.
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23/5/2004, 22:47
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raffaelediciommo
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Re: %GP
Come to Italy and You will see Them.
Why don't you come for the next national Show?
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23/5/2004, 22:51
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canuk
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Re: %GP
I could spend a lot of time pulling down Quotes on this thread.
Bullpen - We know you dislike Champion, you jump on him at every single opportuneaty, I just don't understand how come you disstrust his proof soooooooo much. His proof may falter, but willing to have a private wager he won't faulter any more than the one your plugging as even better.
Untill his 2nd crop, do you think you can quit slagging this bull, it is not nice to put down the competition you know.
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24/5/2004, 3:09
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canuk
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Re: %GP
Frodobag - You say the top Canadian bulls sit at 78% G.P and better, where as their 2nd crop will improve on this. Can you name any modern bulls that are better than 78%, after 2nd crop?????????
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24/5/2004, 3:15
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canuk
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Re: %GP
RDC - your quote "Canada is the toughest country for classification only for foreign bulls" How do you come up with that nonsence?? Classifiers when they score a cow here they have no idea who the sire is untill after they are finished scoring her. It makes ZERO DIFFERANCE wether the sire is foreign or not.
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24/5/2004, 3:24
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howie32
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Re: %GP
quote:
canuk wrote:
Frodobag - You say the top Canadian bulls sit at 78% G.P and better, where as their 2nd crop will improve on this. Can you name any modern bulls that are better than 78%, after 2nd crop?????????
I know this wasn't directed at me, but Linjet is currently 84% GP or better.
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24/5/2004, 3:25
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canuk
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Re: %GP
Yeah theres quite a few, but Triple T, Counselor, and so on, aren't what you call modern.
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24/5/2004, 3:48
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