amlkman
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Production proofs
What are your thoughts on this, Are the current production proofs based mainly on TMR rations? Like will you still see the increases a bull is supose to give you on say a grass based feeding program. There are lots of bulls that are at the top of production index and lots of you that pasture feed complain that there offspring dont milk. is there a Index link between high production bulls and feeding top Hay, Grain and silage Vs. Grass based producers?
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14/5/2004, 6:41
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Bullpen
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Re: Production proofs
Yes this was proven by Langhill as Will said.
Which is why the interbull sham of differing correlations between countries based on environmental factors is a complete nonsense.
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14/5/2004, 9:28
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amlkman
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Re: Production proofs
But Say a Dairyman in Ca. Has a 92 lb. herd ave. And a guy in another country only has a 50 lb ave. on grass. The guy on grass has higher test. so do they just average everything. And dont some cattle do better on grass then others. I know that an uncle i have in the Azores started importing some high end cattle from Europe and they performed less and lasted less time on there grass program then there tougher home bred cattle.Would'nt it be right for each bull to be sampled in the country that they would be sold in first before each country uses the bull. I don't think I would go by a UK proof, and I'm very werry about the Canada proof. They claim a bull 1500 K. of milk so that should be 3,000 lbs here. Then you look at there US proof and there 800 lbs why doesent that convert over like it should. And I think that a lot of you guys in Europe go by our US proofs and are disipointed by some of the bulls. Why is it that they have great production here and you guys don't do so well with them and Vise versa
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15/5/2004, 3:12
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IndiesViewGD
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Re: Production proofs
Honestly I don't put a lot of stock in production proofs. My motto is and always has been breed for type feed for production (not to start this debate again). I think that as a rule milk proofs as far as actual pounds or kilos of milk is inacurate and unreliable.
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15/5/2004, 3:34
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amlkman
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Re: Production proofs
If proofs are so full of crap then why do they use them. And why would there Type proof be diferent then there production proof. it is gathered in the same respect. There has to be a way to acuratly judge a bulls offspring?
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15/5/2004, 3:41
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canuk
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Re: Production proofs
Have no problem with production proofs, a high milk sire from the UK, should by law of averages be a high milk sire anywhere. I don't understand how they come up with some of these conversions, from one country to another, and I have come to realize I probably never will.
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15/5/2004, 4:07
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FiringOnAllFour
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Re: Production proofs
Agricultural Research Institute in Northern Ireland has also found higher production genetics to outperform their lower counterparts across all systems.
Whether or not a high production animal is suited to a low production system is for debate. However, it makes sense to me that an animal is most likely to give a good overall performance when bred into a similar kind of system from which her genetics came.
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15/5/2004, 12:39
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canuk
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Re: Production proofs
Smous - Thank you, for putting that in terms I, and I'm sure others can understand.
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15/5/2004, 14:34
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ronflatness
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Re: Production proofs
Today's top bulls have the genetic POTENTIAL to excell in all systems.
You could compare a thoroughbred and a plow horse..the former will outrun the latter. But if forced to survive under the most adverse conditions, go with the plow horse.
Actually some people should be jailed for the way they treat animals... under those conditions... they shouldn't be allowed to keep any animals.
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15/5/2004, 15:08
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ToB
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Re: Production proofs
Are we to take it the reference to Thoroughbred would refer the same to Show Cows
Whereas, Plowhorses would refer to Hardworking Commercial Index Cows?
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17/5/2004, 22:13
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foxleigh
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Re: Production proofs
quote:
. Given the management to suit her she will produce an incredible ammount of milk and produce a profit for her owner.
The plow horse was the cow bred to survive in a low input system. She will produce some milk, generally good components and go back in calf easily, from little or no feeding.
are you suggesting that a plowhorse is not profitible?
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17/5/2004, 23:13
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IndiesViewGD
EX95
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Re: Production proofs
quote:
amlkman wrote:
If proofs are so full of crap then why do they use them. And why would there Type proof be diferent then there production proof. it is gathered in the same respect. There has to be a way to acuratly judge a bulls offspring?
Honestly when selecting type bulls the best way to look at them to is by their actual values. The linears are based on deviations in comparisson to herdmates, thus making them unreliable.
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18/5/2004, 1:58
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amlkman
EX95
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Re: Production proofs
Then why are they used? Why is there not a better program in place? The Plow horse type of cow is profitable in the right situation. Where as the Race horse type is also. Thats what I'm getting at with this thread. Are some of the bulls you guys use over seas from us are they the Race horse type that dont do good in your situation but great in ours. Or are they the plow horse type that seem to last. A few of each? More of one then the other?
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18/5/2004, 3:01
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IndiesViewGD
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Re: Production proofs
Couldn't tell you what they do overseas since I'm from Wisconsin, and I don't know why there isn't a better program.
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18/5/2004, 4:23
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smous
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Re: Production proofs
You are on the money amlkman. All the herds I sell into are on pasture 365 days a year, with varying levels of silage and concentrate (grain) supplementation, more and more of them batch calve seasonally. Most of them split calve, +-1/3 of the herd in Autumn (Feb, March) and the remainder in Spring to coincide with our 'spring flush' of grass.
In general but not exclusively dairyman want the more robust, medium size of cow with good components and medium milk (very few disregard milk altogether). Management traits have become hugely important their low heritability and low reliability on first crop notwithstanding. This would be regarded as your 'plough horse' type of cow and yes you can make a profit out of her - a lot of profit. We have probably had our best two years ever for profitability on this system. Guys feeding TMR in the hinterland with high input costs and declining milk price are in the poo and selling out fast.
One of the most profitable herds I work with milks 450 cows, split calving on pastures and flat rate feeds five kilograms (11 lbs) concentrate regardless of days in milk or production. They average 7500 kgs (16 500 lbs) milk a lactation.
Sons of Patron and Juror fit the system, sons of Winchester and Bellwood don't get much of a look in. High milk bulls that breed stature, narrow front ends and deeper udders are out. Duster, Lava and Mountain daughters have done outstandingly well here, their daughters are medium size, milk well and get into calf easily. A Manfred son with good udders is what we need now.
Very few conspiracy theorists here, they and I believe in linears and it has been our experience that well proven first crop US bulls live up to them. I can think of no better alternative or any reason to reinvent the wheel.
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WWS-SA
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18/5/2004, 6:32
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ronflatness
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Re: Production proofs
If you want to breed and milk them...you have to feed them.
Net Merit$ is the best index to evaluate cows for success in commercial conditions.
Nothing wrong with linear traits, it's based on herdmates and the pedigree of the individuals.
In the showring you are only comparing animals of the same age(if they are the same age), nobody complains about that.
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18/5/2004, 13:41
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