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MarkDay
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Virtual sire analyst-the results!
A total of 23 people took part in the survey. The following list includes those bulls chosen by 5 or more people. The list is made up of 19 sires.
I'm sorry the data doesn't transfer very well from my spread sheet.If any one would like to see the spread sheet I can email it to them.
Name/Nominations/total sons /C'try/Dams class/UK TYPE
HARTLINE TITANIC / 15/ 154/ C/ 88/ 3.25
BRAEDALE FREELANCE / 15/ 141/ C/ 88/ 3.05
LADINO PARK TALENT/ 12/ 99/ C/ 91/ 3.6
PURSUIT SEPTEMBER STORM / 10/ 91/ C/ 85/ 3.34
STOUDER MORTY / 9/ 95/ US/ 89/ 3.45
AQUILA PATRON LUCENTE / 9/ 91/ UK/ 87/ 2.67
O-BEE MANFRED JUSTICE / 8/ 80/ US/ 92/ 0.57
CALBRETT-I H H CHAMPION / 8/ 80/ C/ ex/ 3.1
ROYLANE JORDAN / 7/ 51/ US/ 90/ 3.26
LANCELOT / 6/ 71/ DEU/ 88/ 1.53
SILKY GIBSON / 6/ 58/ C/ 87/ 3.72
VANZETTI VALENTEIN RAUL / 6/ 53/ ITA/ 89/ 1.8
SUNNYLODGE LINJET / 6/ 46/ C/ 87/ 1.57
REGANCREST ELTON DURHAM / 5/ 58/ C/ 95/ 3.27
CANYON-BREEZE ALLEN / 5/ 55/ US 93/ 2.81
SILVERPOST SINATRA / 5/ 40/ NLD 85/ 2.3
END-ROAD PVF BOLIVER/ 5/ 38/ US ?/ 1.88
TERRICK REGGIE / 5/ 35/ C/ 89/ 2.46
CARECA / 5/ 30/ NLD/ 87/ 1.81
4 nominatons
Boss Iron, LYSTER,Strunz
3 nominations
DE CROB DYNASTY,
Doolhof December,Marmax,Laudan
V Eaton,Best,Banderas,bw marshall
2 nominations
NORZ-HILL FORM WIZARD,Campogallo PG Tresor,Dundee,Sosa,Forbidden,
Comestar Outside,comestar Stormatic,TERRASON,Jocko Besne,horst Harry,RED MARKER,SKYCHIEF
A Further 51 bulls recieved one nomination each!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have had a look at my choices and I chose 8 within the "favourites".I was surprised Dynasty didn't receive more votes, I chose him for his components combined with type and an out cross pedigree. The other two I chose that failed to excite others were Strunz and Laudan.- they both have interesting sire stacks,Laudan being a Lukas son from a Raider x Blackstar dam.
I set certain type criteria based on legs and feet,udders and overall type. Boliver, Oman and Raul failed those requirements but surprisingly so did Linjet ,I was shocked at how average his UK type figures were.
to view everyone's nominations click below
http://com2.runboard.com/bcowtalk.fmainchat.t238
Last edited by MarkDay, 24/3/2004, 21:26
--- Bickleygate holsteins
"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison |
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4/3/2004, 19:39
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foxleigh
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
mark can we have a list/statistics on who the/how many maternal sires we got?
all those who put down 4th xcalvers plus,who are they sired by?a lot of maternal sires havnt been around that long?
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4/3/2004, 21:12
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
Well done Mark- very interesting study, I feel a lot better now knowing I'm not the only one that thinks A.Is should be testing a few more sons from bulls like Gibson, and Linjet. Linjet with type of 1.57 makes no sence to me, something very, very wrong with that conversion.(not surpriseing)
8 of my 10 bulls were in the popular list, with Lyster and Stormatic being the two that missed, guessing most figure Stormatics time has gone by, and have moved on to Titanic, and September Storm. Have to toot my horn a little not sure but was I not the only Canadian in this pole?? Felt these bulls with Canadian proofs held their own to say the least.
Big Bird-I agree fully with both of your points, high and NARROW pins are getting to be a huge problem, hardly ever see a big box car rump anymore (linjets specialty)
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4/3/2004, 21:25
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broa
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
Mark I think you deserved one of these :sa
Laudan did exite at least one other person namely yours truly.
I think there's a number of bulls chosen that already should, if they where to be used as sires of sons, have calves in the pens. Alternatively they could be the maternal sire.
My take on this objective is that you have to use the bulls that are the very best for each trait i.e the highest milk bull, highest test, best udder, best feet & legs and so on.
Unfortunately you seldom, if ever, find all of it in the same package at best some bull might combine a few of those traits.
the most important part in this strategy is how these "extreme" bulls are being used.
It is crucial that the right matings are made in order to multiply the positive genes and dilute the negative ones.
If you set a minimum standard for each trait you give up on many of your oportunities to make progress and chances are that you might only be able to maintain what you already have.
I see this as a process with several steps
where you try to salvage the positive trait from the best bull for that trait and by using him on cows that are very strong where the bull have his weak points you hopefully get a offspring that is more complete than both parents.
this usually has to be repeated for a few generations before you get a bull you like to use across the board.
I'm not talking corrective matings here,
where you use a bull like aerostar on a bow legged cow.
If legs are a weak point of the bull he should be used on a cow from a family with generations of very correct legs.
Todays show cows produce much more milk than the show cows of yesterday, I think it is because of this process.
---
"It's nothing personal, it's just cowtalk"
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4/3/2004, 22:32
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simon powell
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
quote:
broa wrote:
My take on this objective is that you have to use the bulls that are the very best for each trait i.e the highest milk bull, highest test, best udder, best feet & legs and so on.
Unfortunately you seldom, if ever, find all of it in the same package at best some bull might combine a few of those traits.
the most important part in this strategy is how these "extreme" bulls are being used.
It is crucial that the right matings are made in order to multiply the positive genes and dilute the negative ones.
Broa,
I think that you have really hit the bullseye with this statement. The required bulls need to be extreme in various positive traits, without carrying any extreme negatives.
You have summed it up perfectly!!!!!!
Well done Mark, on a really worthwhile excersise!!!!
I think that the results are a great endorsement of government by democracy.
Consider the huge differences between countries, climates and production systems of all the participants, and then note the rather balanced group of bulls we have ended up with. The majority offer production and type combined, with a sample of the two extremes included to satisfy all tastes and requirements.
BULLSTUDS BEWARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not only have we produced a set of sires to do the business, we have managed not to alienate any part of our marketplace.
UUUURRRRRRRHHHHHHHHHMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!
Pause for thought perhaps?
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4/3/2004, 23:59
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mmt95
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
I, too, kept putting this off until it was locked. Just as well I suppose. I'm too hooked on finding the breeders first who breed the top cows and their families and go from there, not from the AI cow and sire list.
Enjoyed Simon Powell's tongue-in-cheek list of sires, posted March 3. Funny thing though, we have some good cows from some of those bulls: An EX 92 Ned Boy that has an Ex daughter. An Ex Bellwood with two nice uddered daughters, an Ex Lieutenant, two Ex Mascot's. One's full sister is VG 88 EVE+E) GMD-DOM, and still in the milking herd of my daughter, at eleven years. I give the dam (R.Ivory Mark) the credit for those though.
It takes a mighty poor bull not to have a few good daughters.
Last edited by mmt95, 5/3/2004, 4:53
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5/3/2004, 4:49
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simon powell
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
quote:
smous wrote:
And totally agree with the easy calving part(do you believe this or was your tongue still in your cheek?), that is my biggest gripe with the Jed sons. You cannot market 'cow killers' to commercial dairymen.
I am very sorry to disappoint you Smous, but I'm afraid that my tongue was still in cheek.
Whilst I fully understand exactly where you are coming from, concerning the use of easy calving bulls in large commercial operations. I am firmly of the opinion that the use of easy calving bulls generation after generation can result in a female that is incapable of successfully giving birth to a decent sized calf!
common sense should prevail when breeding heifers, but it is important that the cows we breed, have the neccessary width and rump structure, to be bred to any holstein bull.
Afterall there are many young sires, and farm bulls, for which we have no calving ease information.
I appreciate that calving ease bulls do exist, that produce daughters of great width and scale. I feel that they are very much outnumbered by bulls whose daughters will always be too narrow throughout, and particularly in the rump area. I am sure that research has been done to back this up.
(calving ease v's maternal calving ease).
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5/3/2004, 23:37
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
Good point on the 3rd + calvers not being represented by enough good old bulls. To do it over would add Triple T, Raider, Inspration, Sexation, and the like. Other than France showing up on this list, it dosn't look to me like it really changed all that much. Your quote that this list contains more reliable sires escapes me. Do you really beleive this to be true?
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6/3/2004, 17:03
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cdl
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
will
i love it when people think like you it makes my life so much easier.canada and usa has been and is the top place in the world for cows and bulls no one else comes close,has there been a european bull that has gone down in history as a great
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6/3/2004, 19:51
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foxleigh
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
thanks mark
a lot of the maternal sires hardly appear to have been around long enuf to have sired 6yo old cows.
One reason why we might not have seen many european greats is because of quarentine protocol.mad cow and foot and mouth has kept many countries out for alot of years.
I would say terling brabazon was a great for the UK and NZ and oz to a lesser extent.
i think sabbonia bookie could be up there and boss iron in the future.
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6/3/2004, 20:11
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alan a
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
quote:
Will Richardson wrote:
The top 20 maternal grandsires tell me the following.
1. Europe is easily capable of producing bulls equal to or better than anywhere in the US or Canada.
2. European bulls have a higher degree of reliability between initial test proofs and second crop proofs.
3. The UK conversion formula over rate North American sires and under rate European sires.( Some of us probably guessed this years ago).
The top 50 PLi bulls from 2000 had 11 Dutch bulls, 5 Uk bulls, 14 French bulls, 11 US bulls, 5 Italian bulls, 3 germans, 1 Australian and 0 canadian bulls.
These included such great second crop sires as Delta herald and Igale masc.
Only 4 of that 50 made it onto the maternal sires list. (Addison, Tugolo, Mtoto and aaron). The Holstein Uk sire summary books are useful things to have around, when you want to check what were the top sires 4 years ago.
So does that mean that the other 46 were under rated compared to the 6 canadian sires who made it onto the maternal list ?
Or maybe that Semex's current 25 bulls on their proof sheet in the Uk, only 12 have UK second crop proofs suggests that those canadian proofs just don't hold up. But some of us guessed that years ago, didn't we ?
---
Alan Armstrong
Semex Ni Area manager
Part owner in a few cows and calves (details and contracts on request)
Also test a few bulls of our own (all orders accepted)
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7/3/2004, 18:09
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IndiesViewGD
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
quote:
foxleigh wrote:
thanks mark
a lot of the maternal sires hardly appear to have been around long enuf to have sired 6yo old cows.
One reason why we might not have seen many european greats is because of quarentine protocol.mad cow and foot and mouth has kept many countries out for alot of years.
I would say terling brabazon was a great for the UK and NZ and oz to a lesser extent.
i think sabbonia bookie could be up there and boss iron in the future.
I don't know about Boss Iron we have about 5 or 6 calves and can only say I'm impressed with one. The rest are short, peaked rumped, and tend to hock-in; so for the one good one I blame her 93 point dam.
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7/3/2004, 18:09
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mmt95
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
Since none of us are responsible for selecting the young sires, or culling them to suit the bull stud's needs, but only "eat the hash we're served", why talk and brag about which country does the best job of proving, and whose bulls hold up?
This isn't rugby.
The people responsible for compiling all those proof numbers couldn't tell a cow pie from a spinach soufflie'.
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7/3/2004, 19:19
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MarkDay
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
quote:
alan a wrote:
quote:
Will Richardson wrote:
The top 20 maternal grandsires tell me the following.
1. Europe is easily capable of producing bulls equal to or better than anywhere in the US or Canada.
2. European bulls have a higher degree of reliability between initial test proofs and second crop proofs.
3. The UK conversion formula over rate North American sires and under rate European sires.( Some of us probably guessed this years ago).
The top 50 PLi bulls from 2000 had 11 Dutch bulls, 5 Uk bulls, 14 French bulls, 11 US bulls, 5 Italian bulls, 3 germans, 1 Australian and 0 canadian bulls.
These included such great second crop sires as Delta herald and Igale masc.
Only 4 of that 50 made it onto the maternal sires list. (Addison, Tugolo, Mtoto and aaron). The Holstein Uk sire summary books are useful things to have around, when you want to check what were the top sires 4 years ago.
So does that mean that the other 46 were under rated compared to the 6 canadian sires who made it onto the maternal list ?
Or maybe that Semex's current 25 bulls on their proof sheet in the Uk, only 12 have UK second crop proofs suggests that those canadian proofs just don't hold up. But some of us guessed that years ago, didn't we ?
Alan, I don't think anyone selected their maternal sires from a PLI list, let alone one from precisely four years ago, never the less I had a look at the top 50 PLI sires with a 90% reliability and there are still no Canadian sires in there!
--- Bickleygate holsteins
"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison |
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7/3/2004, 21:48
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foxleigh
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Re: Virtual sire analyst-the results!
well never did work out how many of the maternal sires were old enuf to sire the 6 yo old cows that were to have sons!
regarding boss iron , in our herd , I have 6 already and apart from the 1 month early mouse who would eat you alive when she sees you coming they are with out fail long ,tall, calves with adequate width of chest and really nice rumps good hard tops etc.
At birth my husband canned them for lack of forerib
however Im noticing (and Im still waiting for someone who has been around long enuf and reared enuf of them to verify this)that animals with chief mark blood close upcan be SMALL, they also dont grow up to be big/tall.
Some of them are almost impossible to keep alive!!!especially integritys, but also durhams and even zeniths.
I remeber mark calves born in the midwest in the 80s that were on drips from the vet for first weeks of life!!!
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7/3/2004, 22:00
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