Page: 1 2
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 658
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
 | 
|
|
Your Breeding Program
What does everyone breed for? such as show type, type, production, index, etc.
|
|
8/2/2004, 21:47
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 546
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
We try to breed for a cow with good conformation, above average in size, with a high wide udder, and strength enough to milk well over the long haul. We sell milk for the fluid milk market, so high components aren't as important for us as they are for some dairyman. We sell breeding stock, so we do like to keep a good fat and protein test.
We like show cows, too. But they have to MILK to stay.
We sell a number of breeding bulls, and the customer wants the dam to be high scoring with good production.
Index is incidental, but it is most important for AI consideration. Some cows have it, some don't. Its something we like to see, but we don't breed for it per se. Since it isn't carried by a gene, how do you breed for an index?
Last edited by mmt95, 9/2/2004, 6:15
|
|
8/2/2004, 23:49
|
|
broa
EX97
Isangoma
Global user
Registered: 12-2003
Location: Martebo
Posts: 2283
Karma: 51 (+52/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
quote:
Index is incidental, some cows have it, some don't. Its something we like to see, but we don't breed for it. Since it isn't carried by genes, how do you breed for index?
Index is only carried by genes and nothing but genes, it's a estimated value on how much certain genes can contribute to breeding progress based on previous achievments made by males and females whithin the same family.
the eventual shortcommings of the index system comes from the fact that, I'm sure you're well aware of, it only include a limited number of traits.
The traits involved is usually the ones concidered the most important i.e production.
some of the traits that have been left out may, and likely have, a significant impact on lifetime profitabillity of the animals but nevertheless it's carried by genes.
I'm sure the guys at Sandy Valley or some of the other "index breeders" will be more than happy to clue you in as to how to breed for it.
In my opinion index is a important tool in trying to improve the breed, not necesarily something you need to use to improve your herd.
Oh, I forgot to mention, I breed for a long lasting cow that can reach a hundred tonnes in the shortest possible time whithout too much hassle.
as a sideline or perhaps it should be regarded as a hobby I also breed for a few high index animals.
Last edited by broa, 9/2/2004, 0:36
---
HAVE YOU VOTED FOR COWTALK YET?
|
|
9/2/2004, 0:32
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 546
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
broa, With all due respect for your breeding goals, the question was,"What do YOU breed for." That was what I tried to express. What I should breed for, or what others breed for is something else entirely. I'm not minimizing index as a tool, it is just that attaining high indexes isn't our main goal.
Last edited by mmt95, 9/2/2004, 6:53
|
|
9/2/2004, 6:49
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1306
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Broa- Am a true production index hater, no use for it what so ever, has nothing to do with a cows true ability to transmit anything. I do however find index's for managemeant traits have there place, and will only get better. scs, herd life, fertily, ease of calving, and even % stillbirths all have some value. My breeding program like them to score V.G and make 10 to 12,000 kgs, have at least 4 calves minimum. Sorry but I have to wonder Broa if it is because you like index cows, that you are not so fond of the pretty ones. Also your quote it has everything to do with genes, its an estimated value, falls a little short of makeing any real sence to me. Please don't take this personal I just fail to see any true breeder trying to improve the breed, not fatten their wallet, taking production index's seriously. Our master breeder program over here gets about 20 new members every year, have never once heard any say index helped them to improve their herd. I only can wish to become a member of this elite group, to breed for index's is a sure way never to acheive this.
|
|
9/2/2004, 22:37
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 2757
Karma: 32 (+32/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
My breeding aims are to produce a third calved cow that improves my herd for type and production. At present that means being able to give 10,000 litres plus and being capable of scoring at least VG.
As long as this looks feasible I'm not over concerned about heifer lactations.
I want a cow with the depth of breeding and the ability to produce the next generation to similar or higher standard.
I want a youthfull cow that looks like it has had a calf less than it has, and as a fourth or fifth calver still gives me the option of selling her on if I wish, rather than having to milk her or barren her out.
To me, index is a guide not a god, and I no longer breed specifically for it . It's a statistical average on a piece of paper. It can't tell you how a particular bull will work on a particular cow, only what the statistical average of that mating would be. I've made a litle money milking cows, a little money selling cows, but not made anything from an average. ( I can hear keyboards winding up across Nortern England & Scandinavia )
---
65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
|
|
9/2/2004, 22:43
|
|
broa
EX97
Isangoma
Global user
Registered: 12-2003
Location: Martebo
Posts: 2283
Karma: 51 (+52/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Canuk.
quote:
Sorry but I have to wonder Broa if it is because you like index cows, that you are not so fond of the pretty ones.
You make it sound like we're talking about two different breeds here ?
I don't look at a cow as being a index cow or a show cow, to me she has to be a profitable milk producer.
If a cow has won a show or if she has a top proven son in AI it will only have a marginal influence on her market value over here.
I am the first to agree that basing your breeding program on a production index only is just plain stupid.
on the other hand using a total merit index as a guide can be a very valuable tool if it's based on reliable data.
Big Bird.
quote:
To me, index is a guide not a god, and I no longer breed specifically for it . It's a statistical average on a piece of paper. It can't tell you how a particular bull will work on a particular cow, only what the statistical average of that mating would be.
thats the reason I said this.
quote:
In my opinion index is a important tool in trying to improve the breed, not necesarily something you need to use to improve your herd.
quote:
( I can hear keyboards winding up across Nortern England & Scandinavia )
 
good one, it really made me laugh.
Last edited by broa, 10/2/2004, 0:26
---
HAVE YOU VOTED FOR COWTALK YET?
|
|
10/2/2004, 0:22
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1306
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Sorry to dissagree, to improve the breed takes time, and patience, no one knows where the next brood cow will come from untill shes probably at least 7 yrs old. My feeling on this whole thing is its all too much one way, its easy to talk about longevity, and fertility, but if it doesn't have a production index to go with it A.I's are not interested. 1,000's of cows are born with the will to milk, not just marginaly V.G 2yr olds with what we are to assume, had unbeleiveable 2yr old milk records. I understand the breeder who milks a lot of cows wants survivers, not a new load of heifers every week, so why do they not test a least a few sons out of say the Whimpy family, just for an example. A family with multiple teenagers, multiple 100,000 kgs producers, but because they have been around sooo long they have negative indexs. Why? Why? will a bull like Gibson, have just as many daughters, as a bull like Convincer, assumeing one is as popular as the other,(for different reasons of coarse) but Convincer will have 100s of sons in A.I, and Gibson will be lucky to have 25. (IS THIS PROGRESS?) Sorry to be so long winded, but this is whats wrong with the power of an index.
|
|
10/2/2004, 5:00
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 658
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
I breed for show type and just plain type. I love show cows but understand the importance of a nice looking barn cow as well. You don't breed for production you feed for it that's my philosophy. I do however take components into consideration.
|
|
11/2/2004, 5:28
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 658
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
This philosophy makes sense to an extent. If you have good production and a good program most cows will milk regardless of what a bull sires for production that's just my opinion and personal experience.
|
|
12/2/2004, 4:01
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1306
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Interesting reading for those with Indies"veiw" Holstein Journal Feb issue article on Canadas elite multiple excellents. The majority of these cows are from big minus milk bulls, but all have big lifetime records. (actual not predicted, as their index's predict failure) I also share Indiesveiws veiw (whew !)
|
|
12/2/2004, 15:51
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 546
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Breed for type, feed for production, and cull those that don't respond. Milk will follow type, but type won't follow milk.
Last edited by mmt95, 12/2/2004, 19:25
|
|
12/2/2004, 15:52
|
|
mmt95
EX95
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Location: USA
Posts: 546
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Since AI studs cull over 90% of their "herd", is it culling for type or production, or both? The majority of the bulls they start with have basically the same index backgrounds.
So all the bulls that make the stud lineup should be outstanding. How can we run down any proven AI bull? They are the best of the best, aren't they?
|
|
12/2/2004, 22:08
|
|
foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 1906
Karma: 18 (+18/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
havent time to get indepth just now....
Q. what happened to profitibility?
ie. if breeding and feeding are at optimum rates ie ex 10,000l as opposed to P and 10,000l or EX and 7,000l but 350kg fat,
is it returning you a profit?
|
|
12/2/2004, 22:34
|
|
canuk
Ex97
True Scarlet
Global user
Registered: 11-2003
Posts: 1306
Karma: 23 (+24/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Foxleigh- I can't wait to hear the in depth version, as you are right on about profitability. AC1 sorry if I missed it, but you being one of the 99.9% of dairy famers, that obviously know what the secret is, just what is your breeding program? maybe we all should listen. Have no problem with anyones choice really, I just wish they would try someting differant once in a while like try high index bull on big show cow, and vicse versa,and not always leaveing behind the mature cow that has proven herself worthy as a brood cow, but her index has no longer kept up. Have said it enough already, production indexs just carry too much weight, too much of the time.
|
|
13/2/2004, 0:53
|
|
IndiesViewGD
EX95
Global user
Registered: 08-2003
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 658
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Your Breeding Program
Well said canuk, I think our AI industry is too one dimenshional. Just a thought for those who don't agree with me that you breed for type and breed for production; technically we all breed for production to and extent. The vast majority of the bulls going into AI are out of high producing high index cows. What I'm saying is we just choose the bulls who have higher type out of this group. Granted there are bulls from show cows in AI and of course those are the bulls I like for the most part, but I am using high index bulls with good type as well; thus doesn't this mean I also breed for production?
|
|
13/2/2004, 5:03
|
|
click here to give a full reply or use the box below for a quick reply
Page: 1 2
Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b - Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 7/10/2008, 18:44
|
|
|
/Sire/VirDir/14HO02586s_01_Paradise-R%20Sailor%2095-ET%20EX-95.jpg)
2 