triday1
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Musings of a mad cowperson
Just got the January Holstein World with the All American nominations in it... Most interesting thing to me in the whole thing was the article on Lantland farms in New York State with 3 cows whose combined lifetime totals over 1 million pounds. Thought this was quite an accomplishment. The cows incidentally were sired by Maries Thunder (starlite out of a 96 point astronaut), Higher-View Matinee (fond matt out of a 95 point daughter of a Thonyma bred bull) and some jumper bull. The THunder was out of a matinee and the matinee was out of a commissioner. All 3 cows were excellent up to 94 points with multiple excellent daughters and granddaughters in the Lantland herd up to 94 points again. Having been to Lantland several years ago and being amazed at how well these old cows looked I was more amazed to read that they were still alive and producing...
Most impressive ad in the issue to me was Dave Bachmann's Pinehurst/Fieldstone ad. He advertised six cows with his prefix with over 300,000 lbs of milk, best records averaging almost 38,000 and the lowest scored one was 89 right up to 96 points. At least is still living and adding to her lifetime totals. Curiousity got the best of me so I figured out what each one was sired by. One Bridon Astro jet, one Browndale Concord, One Paclamar Astronaut, One Paclamar Bootmaker, One Pinehurst Avante-Garde, and one Pinehurst Blueprint. Each bull being a son of a high scored show cow... This kinda shocked me as it wasn't what I was expecting, I figured there would be some former index bulls like Valiant and Elevation in the mix and they were strangely absent...
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19/1/2004, 17:13
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mmt95
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
No, I don't have much faith in the scientist when it comes to breeding good cattle. That is not where their expertise lies. They do not breed the cattle. They don't even select the bulls. The sire analysts do that based on statistical computer printouts. They only handicap from the "racing forms".
Breeders are often overlooked by studs, even though they may have outstanding cattle, because they maintain some form of line breeding in their herds, based on their own cow families.
Fortunately, we are seeing sons of some of the high profile cows now entering AI.
In the days of glass milk bottles and whole milk, and local bottling plants, a local dairyman had a herd of 2/3 Holsteins and 1/3 Jerseys to keep a good cream line. He decided to breed his Holsteins to a Jersey bull and the Jerseys to a Holstein bull. The result being, his son told us later, were cows that milked like a Jersey and tested like a Holstein. In later years the son had a good herd of Registered Holsteins.
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20/1/2004, 7:20
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Bob
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Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
Well Triday, you have been putting forward a good case for dismissing the work of AI for the last 30 years. How you can dismiss bulls like Elevation and Valiant as just index bulls makes me question your credibility.Elevation was the greatest bull of his generation and Valiant has contributed to the high type bloodlines beyond compare. He is ultimately responsible for Inspiration, Lindy, Counsellor, Broker, Thor, Mandel via Eagle, Tesk etc etc despite not being the greatest udder bull himself.
I once went to Jim Sprengs herd in Ohio who used all AI from near the top of the TPI list. He milked 250 cows and the day we were there, 25 cows we saw in the barn had passed 200,000 lbs. I also went to Clover Edge up in Wisconsin- again all AI on the same trip and he was milking 11 x 100 tonne cows. Next door was another all AI herd called Clover Mist - now that was a place to impress. I also remember going to **** Lewis (now retired)at Shanghai and his barns were full of Marks averaging 30,000 lb on twice a day milking. Nobody we talked to on that trip had anything good to say about these fancy hotel cows that you mention where they were pampered from dawn til dusk. Dairying is not like that any more. The Red book was full of failed bulls from these breeder majority farms that not only had no index - they had no type either!
Dairy Farmers have the choice of what sort of bulls they buy. The majority trust and believe in the Farmer owned AI cooperatives and that is why they stick with them. In turn the Farmer owned AI cooperatives chose certain breeders from whom to buy their bulls because they trust their systems. If a breeder is outside that loop, there is usually a reason for it!
How you can be so critical of Sire Analysts in general when there are people out there like Hecker, Will, Blair, Garrison and Blodgett who all passionately believe in cow family.
Last edited by Bob (Local user), 20/1/2004, 10:06
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Married, 2 Teenage Kids. 25 years in industry. Work for Semen World. Keep a few PI ET's.
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20/1/2004, 9:54
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mmt95
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
Most of the good bulls mentioned were either former herd sires or breeder matings. We no loner have AI access to the breeder created matings, unless we go directly to the breeder. They only agree to some of the AI matings suggested, which may or may not be the breeders own choice. Mark was a substitute made by Foster Walk for another bull. Being from a Matt daughter, there is no way AI would consider that pedigree now.
Chief's sire was a young bull in the pen, that later went to a stud. Elevation was a herd bull. Glendel's dam never finished a record. Integrity was turned down, because the stud already had too many Mark sons. Later after the breeder decided to keep him for a herd sire, the stud came back and bought him, due to the dam and her family. Those are just examples, I could go on citing a lot more, and you probably could too.
To block out any bull not created by the computer, is a great genetic loss to the breed. Of course we need the data compilied and sorted and formulated for our use in selection, but that is all it is, a guide to go by, and promising herd bulls should be in the mix too. If some of them don't measure up, at least they had a chance.
As for failed breeder bulls in AI,it takes two to make a bargan. If a buyer for a stud is stupid enough to sucked in by cooked records and dissapearing daughters, he should get another job. The stud has to bare half the blame.
AI companies and dairy magazines should quit knocking the good breeders' herd bulls. Most are collected and used artificially anyway. And beefed before the get to be a danger.
Last edited by mmt95, 20/1/2004, 17:15
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20/1/2004, 16:50
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mmt95
EX95
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
Don't be so sarcastic. Of course those foundation bulls weren't flukes. They were the best among hundreds of proven bulls. I'm speaking of the narrowing of selection methods, not who makes the cut. Good bulls are where you find them, not necessarily at the only place you look.
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20/1/2004, 18:10
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triday1
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
actually I am a huge fan of both valiant and elevation, all of my cattle tend to have both... I never said a disparging word about either, just that they were strangely absent in the pedigrees
 It's funny how with genetics if you disagree with someone, the other person is obviously wrong, not that you could both be wrong, one be wrong or both be right.
I also don't recall being critical of sire anaylsts...
As for Clover-Mist and Shangigh, both places did an excellent job of pampering their cattle beyond belief, in facilities paid for in the investor days of the 80's or by the investor days of the 80's. Both are now defunct. SPreng's now milk 100 cows in that 300 cow facility and do a good job of taking care of 20 cows in a nice box stall barn.
As for questioning my credibility or lack there of, go right ahead ( I question myself and don't agree with myself half the time), I welcome it, but in the process I probaly made you think...
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20/1/2004, 18:15
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Chief Mark, the last of the Chief sons, and Starbuck the last of the Elevation sons. Neither bulls pedigree was, or cow family was on the top any list that I'm aware of. I'm not opossed to ranking bulls for any paticular trait,but the two examples above are proof enough, that true breeding is not a race, and our present index rankings with high 2yr old yeilds the most important thing in any formula, is just plain wrong. Aware that any cow that has 30,000 kgs in two lacts, is a money maker, but has she survived long enough to replace herself?? 60,000 in 5 lacts is more profitable, but the present formulas I think fall short of this concept. I also have visited almost all the herds mentioned in this thread, and have to say ALL dams of A.I sires are pampered to produce to the best of there ability, just like Triday is saying.
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20/1/2004, 20:34
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mmt95
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
Inbreeding is a powerful tool in the hands of the skilled breeder, but it is a loose cannon the way we are seeing it today.
I am not at a loss as to selecting bulls to use. As you say there are plenty for all. What ever system one is confortable with, index or whatever, is the one to use.
Milk isn't our only product, having good well accepted surplus animals to sell is an added benefit.
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20/1/2004, 22:49
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
I would say that in the past bull studs had analists who were thinkers.Before we used sir christopher for an imported flush we rang lowell lindsay for advice on how best to use him and which bloodline.
One of the reasons Doug Savage left semex was because he would spend hours and drive miles to find good cows from great families to be told numbers arent good enuf. IOn a recent holstein international ted burnside even admited the index thing hadnt worked and it would take 20 years to turn it around.
I have been to both lantland and pinehurst and we imported pinehurst elation for our own use and if we couldve got semen of some of lantlands herdsires we wouldve.
i did milk valient daus in the 80s in the states and a lot of our problems would stem from him. slabsided cows with fleshy udders that hocked in!!!!
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21/1/2004, 5:22
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mmt95
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
triday1,
Does this sound familiar? "At Tri-Day we don't like getting up early to milk ugly cows." Amen to that!
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24/1/2004, 7:16
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triday1
EX93
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
I wondered if anyone remembered old Gold. When most people hear our prefix they think of type, but we did breed the #2 TPI bull at one point in the mid 80's and Pen-Col Duster's family started with a cow wearing the Tri-Day prefix(not sure if I should admit that or not). Ironically that cow's dam was purchased for $800 from the University of Maryland because she was holding down their herd average...
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6/2/2004, 8:18
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: Musings of a mad cowperson
I still have 5 straws in the tank
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6/2/2004, 10:13
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