canuk
Ex97
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Mature equivalants
When looking at these figures, it is very interesting to see some of these big minus milk bulls actual MEs Linjet-10,037 Red Marker-10,394 Stardust- 10,155 Counselor-9,308. When you then look at some of the top milk bulls of the day Emerson,Inquirer,Freelance,Titanic,Stormatic, they are all projected to MEs between 11 and 12,000. Personaly with my herd avg above 10,000 kgs I feel either group will maintain that.
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17/1/2004, 15:02
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
These MEs on the high group are just projections are they not?? The problem with these projections most NOT ALL of these really really wet 2yr olds haven,t enough strenth to survive long enough to get mature. Have to respect anyone with herd averages at 14, to 15,000 that is really something, but very hard to maintain. Have had my own avg up to just over 12,000 in the past,(10 yrs ago) but could not maintain it for long, found it was too much effort for my labour, and was tired of needing every single heifer to calve, at that time could not afford to sell anything, as needed them all for replacemeants. Now feel useing these strenth bulls will be able to once again get my avg to go up as they mature. Is there anyone on this site with a herd avg that high, and if so curiuos how old your herd is, and maybe your sires of choice.
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18/1/2004, 16:28
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
Just read the artical in HI, about the cross-breeding trials. Seems the Scandinavian x Holstein cross, is leaving the rest way behind. Much higher milk, fat protein, and way fewer still births, + scs are by far the best. Then I see the ad for Svensk Avel with a piture of one of these, and I have to admit, a herd of these, would not bother me in the least. I am a beleiver in that since index's became the norm, the holstein cow has gone on a whole, down hill way way too fast.
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18/1/2004, 22:27
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mmt95
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Re: Mature equivalants
If the cost of replacements were factored into the index, I'll bet there would be a completely different group of bulls at the top.
In fact one stud manager told me that it wasn't so much about how good the bull's daughters were, but what formula was the latest. That may be a bit of a stretch, but there's some truth to it.
An average doesn't mean all daughters are like that. Some are high, some at the average, and some are lower. It just depends on how many daughters are in each group.
In the young sire population, what is their average? We don't know, but we do know that only 5% are high enough to enter the stud.
You can get in over your head in water that averages two feet deep.
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18/1/2004, 23:39
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broa
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Re: Mature equivalants
quote:
mmt95 wrote:
If the cost of replacements were factored into the index, I'll bet there would be a completely different group of bulls at the top.
In fact one stud manager told me that it wasn't so much about how good the bull's daughters were, but what formula was the latest. That may be a bit of a stretch, but there's some truth to it.
An average doesn't mean all daughters are like that. Some are high, some at the average, and some are lower. It just depends on how many daughters are in each group.
In the young sire population, what is their average? We don't know, but we do know that only 5% are high enough to enter the stud.
You can get in over your head in water that averages two feet deep.
With our approach here in scandinavia you could say that cost of replacement is factored into the index since mastitis resistance, ( based on acctual cases since any treatment of mastitis has to be carried out by a vet that has to report to a computer base that is used to calculate the index for each bull )
daughter fertillity, general disease resistance, calving ease sire and maternal sire as well as life expectancy is part of the total merit index we use and have been using for the past 30 years.
our cows might not be as pretty as some you see in those fancy ads but my banker likes them.
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19/1/2004, 0:53
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mmt95
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Re: Mature equivalants
It sounds like you have a very usable and worthwhile system, based on the actual needs of the dairy farmer. I do not like having all the information based on 2 year old cows. It is almost a scam. I like to know what bulls sire the sound lasting cows. To me a cow is pretty if she will milk and last, and leave daughters that are better than she was. Our index system doesn't tell us which bulls will do that.
That is why I like to visit other farms and see what bulls they are using and how they like the daughters.
My grandfather (born in Sweden) said, "If you haven't seen the offspring, why would you use the bull." (When AI was new, and bulls were not put on "hold")
Last edited by mmt95, 19/1/2004, 2:10
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19/1/2004, 2:03
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triday1
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Re: Mature equivalants
Two quick thoughts on this subject. The herds i know of in the US that have 30,000 lb+ herd averages(only a handful) tend to use bulls like Redmarker, Linjet, Stardust, Encore, previously referred to as beef bulls. This are herds like Kissamee in New york state, Ideal Holsteins in PA, Country-Path in PA etc. All have rolling herd averages over 30,000 lbs...
I read the crossbreeding trials with great interest. Several statiscial things that made me wonder if the data was doctored or the herd management was so bad that the data is irrelevant. 14% still born(doa) on Holstein sired calves? I called some friends that run large dairies(750 cows and up) and their stillborn on pure holstiens never tops 6%(which is still too high) and some were as low as 1%. 8% stillborn on Jersey sired calves? I don't think this is possible either, once again I talked to some friends that run large dairies and the one dairy hadn't lost a jersey cross calf yet and the other 5 had lost less than 1% as still borns. The two year average production was fairly poor also. In the 60 some pound range in the first 120 days in milk with pure holsteins and crosses. That's not real economical levels of production for a confinement nongrazing dairy.
Either way, it intrigues me that commercial dairy producers are willing to sacrifice large amounts of milk for increased fertility, strength, calving ease and components when all that is present in the Holstein breed, just not in the bulls they have been sold for years. So instead of purebred breeders meeting what the market demands thecommercial dairyman are forced to go and start using some exotic dairy breeds, some with merit and some without.
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19/1/2004, 17:24
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
Interesting magazine Holstein International, more reading, and they work hard to keep topics interesting. Find this mag, by far the best information wise, and being a holstein fanatic, I also get the, World, Jounal, Connection, and the Red Bloodlines. I see Mapel Woods avg is at 11,700 kgs, there main sires for marketing Champion, Frelance, Titanic, Best, and Morty. Main sires for regular barn cows Gibson, Leduc, and Linjet. We as breeders really need to put the pressure on our A.I units to start showing cull% and I see no reason why there couldn't be some sort of figure provided for % of daughters that after having produced 1 calf, actually survived long enough to have 4 calves. I realise that imformation takes time, but true breeding improvemeant should never be a race anyway.
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20/1/2004, 3:23
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buckeyebreeder
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Re: Mature equivalants
quote:
these where results on first calvers, not the averages for the entire herds.
the herds involved also represents the part of the holstein population with the highest level of inbreeding which would also explain the low levels of production.
as long as the purebred breeders can't back their fertillity, calving ease, healty bulls up with facts and numbers I can perfectly well understand why the commercial producers will seek these traits elsewhere.
I as well have read as much info on these trials as well. God knows how tempted I am to breed several of my Lee daughters to Collection because I think that he can put some power into them. However I think the problem that many in the states see is the fact that there is no concrete scientific statistical analysis of these herds to look at. I am very concerned about anyone that uses % stillborn calves as a factor on whether to use crossbreeding. To me that sounds like argueing with your neibor about your property line while your house is on fire. The real problems are being ignored while searching for a fix to "it couldn't be my fault" complex. With proper management you should not have that kind of stillborn calf number. Vaccinations, proper diet, and a watchful eye can prevent all most all stillborns. Now I realize that in some herds cows calve unsupervised at night on grazing lots, and those calves may be listed as stillborn, but is that truely a statement on genetics or accepted management risk? One other thing that fries my ass is that all the breeds that are lower production brag about their components of their milk. Who cares. I understand feed efficiency and all but if I limit the production of my holsteins through diet I can see some pretty impressive fat and protein numbers too. On my last test I had a two year old that gave 62 lbs, and had a fat test of 6.1% and protein at 5.1%. Truthfully I would rather that she gave me 80 lbs and lower components. It comes down to the fact all we have to go on when it comes to crossbreeding is promotional information with testimonials about how this has been someones magic bullet. I am sceptical until I see detailed statistical analysis of crossbred cows over their lifetimes.
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20/1/2004, 3:23
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triday1
EX93
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Re: Mature equivalants
These people have been using these bulls all along. All of them will openly tell you that management(3x, top quality forage, comfortable cows) makes the milk, they just need a cow that can stand up to it and handle it.
My whole point on the crossbreeding thing was that no matter how high the inbreeding % is, the DOA (stillborn) figures just show awful management and contain no real value and are so far off base that they seem suspcious. The milk production figures are pretty poor too even for inbred cattle. I beleive a guernsey 2 year old could milk 65 lbs a day in the first 120 days...
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20/1/2004, 5:48
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broa
EX97
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Re: Mature equivalants
this is from ISU:
3/15/99
Contacts:
Jeffrey Berger, Animal Science, (515) 294-3435
Brian Meyer, Agriculture Information, (515) 294-0706
HOLSTEIN STILLBIRTHS RISE, BUT
GENETIC LINK NOT YET ESTABLISHED
DES MOINES, Iowa -- Even though the
incidence of stillbirths in Holstein
dairy herds in the United States has increased since the mid-1980s,
there is still little evidence
it is a genetic trend, say Iowa State University researchers.
"The genetic issue is still
an open question," said Jeffrey Berger,
a professor of animal science.
"Stillbirths are not a black-and-white issue.
There may be many factors involved related to management, nutrition and environment."
Berger and graduate student
Christy Meyer presented results
of his research at the Midwest meetings
of the American Society of Animal Science and American Dairy Science
Association,
March 15-17 in Des Moines.
Stillbirths, which are defined as
calves that die within 48 hours after birth, cause an estimated loss of
$132 million each year to the U.S. dairy industry.
Stillbirths also may be an important
issue for U.S. exports.
The Swedish dairy industry has reported increases in the number of stillbirths,
and have questioned whether
it is related to imports of semen
from American Holstein bulls.
Some countries, including Sweden,
limit the amount of semen that can be imported each year from any one bull
if the animal does not have a genetic evaluation for stillbirths.
"Currently, our research does not
support the development of genetic evaluations for stillbirths,
" Berger said. "We feel a more
important trait to focus on, and perhaps
a better way to approach the stillbirth problem, is by addressing dystocia
-- difficult calvings in which cows
require help from farmers or veterinarians to give birth."
Berger and Meyer studied
stillbirth information from
a national database on calf births
that is compiled by ISU each year.
The database includes information on stillbirths, calving ease and
other factors. They analyzed records
of 613,808 Holstein births from 1984
to 1996. Roughly one-fourth of
the births were calves born to heifers.
The rest were births
to older cows.
In 1984, stillbirths accounted for 4 percent of calves born to to
the older cows.
In 1996, that percentage had risen to 7 percent.
In 1984, stillbirths totaled 8 percent of calves born to Holstein heifers.
In 1996, that percentage was 14 percent.
"The increasing trend in stillbirths
is clear, but there's not yet good
evidence that it's genetically
determined," Berger said. "Right now, the evidence
comes back to dystocia. There is some debate whether stillbirth and dystocia
are different traits. There is good evidence suggesting they are different.
We believe dystocia is where attention
must be paid. It may be that improved management and more careful attention
to calving will help solve the problem."
Berger continues research into
the genetic question. Using the
national dystocia database, he is working
to find any genetic links between bulls
and stillbirths in their progeny.
"The result will help determine if
there are sires or sire families with a high liability for stillbirths," he said.
"If there is a link, it could be
used to develop ways to better select artificial insemination sires."
Collaborating with Berger and Meyer
are researchers from the National Association of Animal Breeders and
Genex Cooperative Inc., an artificial insemination firm.
The National Association of Animal Breeders funds the work.
here's some more interessting reading for whomever cares.
http://www-interbull.slu.se/bulletins/bulletin18/paper15.pdf
Last edited by broa, 20/1/2004, 23:27
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20/1/2004, 21:55
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
I wonder if the whole index thing is a snowball rolling down a hill.
I look at the time frames given and BB mentions Bell, the next hot bull after BELL, blackstar , more narrowness, (any thng here by/with blackstar bloodsire struggles to live)And I must admit this is where I started to lose interest in pedigrees as bulls entering studs didnt enthuse me but jed must have come along and of latter days bellwood and formation.All single trait high milk sires. All leaving narrower than desirable offspring. So if the chests are narrower then pins must be???
We lose the odd pulled calf as his ribs are squashed up coming out thru narrow pins.We lose quite a few backwards pulled too.
I have also noticed that if a calf has a good 45 degree angle on his shoulder then regardless of size he comes out easy.
regarding x breeding , as far as my father is concerned that is the only way to go but his criteria is unreal.
1. no AI...bulls must be reg purebred from a 12yo plus cow who is still in the herd milking and has daus milking too. She must have a good hard top with level pins and an udder that is not lower than hocks. This takes care of all the issues of fertility,cellcount, herdhealth etc.
2. They are in their 60s and any heifer that carries on for more than a week after calving goes over the scales with calf, any sore feet choppered, any mastitis choppered, not in calf (ie. a calf a year expected) choppered.
3. breed doesnt matter just not holstein. The latest young sire is a braunvieh. So far they have used jersey,british friesian,ayrshire,jersey,swedish red,jersey,ayhrshire,guernsay now braunvieh for bit more chestwidth etc.
if you like a mediumsized cow with a nice udder and good feet and legs and dont care about color they are quite nice. OH by the way they dont herdtest ,mum checks every fresh animal with a handheld somatic ceelcount meter and are in top 10 of 700 farms at coop for quality and I guess they must be doing ok financially or wouldve sold up by now.
however one year they got jersey x heifers from a master breeder herd as calves to compare with their own and from 6 only one is left.2 went on temprement , 2 went on type and one wasnt in calf.
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21/1/2004, 5:09
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
What about 1 born 5 weeks early?
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26/1/2004, 20:14
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canuk
Ex97
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Re: Mature equivalants
our milk recording system has for a couple of years now asked for input for DOA. Haven't seen any results yet, but I also am interested in seeing what they find. It basicaly has been a non issue. Cull% has been available for years, but we don't see that either this one really bothers me as I feel its seriously important. PL and scs are great ideas and defenatly worth a look, we as breeders from all across this planet need to put the pressure on for stillbirth% and cull%.
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26/1/2004, 22:34
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