Page: 1 2 3
simon powell
EX94
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
|
 | 
|
|
CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
With the plethora of information we now have available to us when making a mating decision, have we lost some of our ability to become instinctive breeders?
|
|
14/9/2003, 22:26
|
|
Bob
Local user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I think that despite the mass of info available, you have to know what to believe - sometimes that is reasoned and sometimes instinctive. I think anything coming from a genuine farmer owned AI cooperatives is going to be tested with finding the truth as the main concern. That cannot be said for some privately tested bulls. But we all know in this game that anyones proofs can go down or up and goalposts do move.
Then you have to choose to use this mass of information to improve your herd.
Buying the semen is one thing - using it on the right cows is another. A breeder can turn a £15.00 bull into a £30.00 bull by using it in the right places - and just as easily vice versa. There is still room for individuality and instinct in breeding and always will be. It is not an exact science and success or failure will be down to your interpretation of what fits on what. Then there is always Lady Luck. But you can do a lot to make your own luck.
Last edited by Bob (Local user), 15/9/2003, 9:43
|
|
15/9/2003, 9:20
|
|
hare
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 4
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Breeding has always been a blend of art and science. However we are now bombarded with so much information that the number crunchers would have us believe that science is the more important. MOET has been going for some years now with some success but has yet to breed a truly world class bull. Perhaps if the scientists had held slightly less sway and had not got so carried away with chasing index then maybe they would have.
This is not meant as a dig at MOET because they are certainly not the only ones to chase index but merely as an example to ilustrate my point.
|
|
15/9/2003, 11:22
|
|
3st2jje6
Local user
Registered: 08-2003
Posts: 14
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I would say art.
But you have to decide what you really want from your herd and where you want to go and set criteria on have to get there and stick to this whatever the current fashion trends.
The AI companies and the showring seems to provide to much SPIN! Our job as breeders is to sift through all this and not be taken down the wrong path.
|
|
15/9/2003, 17:01
|
|
Will Richardson
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Close to a pub
Posts: 1258
Karma: 14 (+14/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Art ... but where are the true Masters who can breed a real decent cow from virtually any bull they can lay their hands on regarless of whether it is +3 or -3 on type ?
All I see is a bunch of pedigree breeders painting by numbers ( using bulls of a mimnimum +2.5 on type for consecutive generations ) without really breeding a true masterpiece.... which then goes on to be a true breed leader. I do not believe there is any instinct in this just merely brainwashing by semen companies who tell us we must have this, that and the other and without it we will fail.
The days of the true artist appear to be long gone but what have scientists or reps ever bred ??????????
|
|
15/9/2003, 19:36
|
|
MarkDay
Head Administrator
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 3035
Karma: 26 (+28/-2)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Whilst looking up the word plethora in the chambers dictionary I thought I would also have a look at the words "art" and "science"!
ART
1a the creation of works of beauty, esp visual ones: b such creations thought of collectively
2 human work and skill as opposed to nature
3 a skill esp one gained through practice
Looking good so far!
SCIENCE
1 the systematic observation and classification of natural phenomena in order to learn about them and bring them under general principals and laws.
2 a department or branch of such knowledge or study developed in this way, e.g. astronomy, genetics, chemistry.
3 any area of knowledge obtained using, or arranged according to, formal principals.
4 acquired skill or technique, as opposed to natural ability.
A lot more boring, but no less important!
As far as I'm concerned breeding has to be a combination of the two!!
Oh I nearly forgot!
PLETHORA
A large or excessive amount.
You can't have too much information ..the more the better!!!!!
Last edited by MarkDay, 15/9/2003, 20:11
--- Bickleygate holsteins
"I have not failed 1000 times, I have discovered a 1000 ways that do not work"-Thomas Edison |
|
15/9/2003, 20:06
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 2757
Karma: 32 (+32/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Art ..... but
I think today that the commercial producer, or even the commercial pedigree herds, could probably manage a herd of cows to do what they want using virtually all science. I do think at this level the science has done a good job and the bottom end cows and herds have improved hugely, also improving the average. Is this breeding? Yes I suppose it is, but not my idea of breeding.
Once you start to seek more type in your herd or cow then you are looking at an art form, something that if you are successfull with you can be proud of and other people will hopefully want to see as well.
I agree with Will about what is happening at the moment with the breeding, and I think this is where the science has failed. A.I. and E.T. have concentrated the bloodlines we are working with. Anything outside what the breeding companies are working with is regarded as substandard, particularly if it doesn't have index. Breeders are as guilty of this as the semen companies, as Will says we have been brainwashed.
I believe there will be a big prize out there shortly for somebody who can successfully create and market a true masterpiece, something bred so differently in terms of pedigree everyone will sit up and listen.
Can it be done? I really hope so.
Can it be done by science? No, it will be the work of an artist.
|
|
15/9/2003, 20:14
|
|
simon powell
EX94
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Wow........can't disagree with any of that!!
You would probably all guess that I would favour breeding as an art, first and foremost.An art that can utilise science, although not always.
It is interesting that in other species, where less statistical information is available, the main focus is still on the blending of different bloodlines. I am not suggesting that this is the only way to breed, just that we may have lost some of our ability to think in these terms!!
Does the panel think that the balance is different when the intention is to produce bulls rather than females?
|
|
15/9/2003, 21:50
|
|
Bob
Local user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I am glad to see that generally people think that the average cow today is better than yesteryear. Cows have improved - at least in our eyes. Of course as cows increase yields other problems come to be. Udders have improved but fertility etc have not. This is not surprising - yield and fertility seem to move in opposite directions. So what do the panel think that AI companies should have produced that they have not. We always look for different bloodlines but at the end of the day, the reason certain bloodlines dominate is because they give the customer what he wants and others do not. To stay in business you have to produce what the customer wants. You can try to lead but it takes time for people to follow especially into uncharted territory. Every purchase of semen is a vote for that type of bull. Things go full circle and maybe the tide has moved away from production and more towards health and fertility.
It is scientists, the press and advisory groups who I think try to simplify things too much. They like indexes like PIN and PLI so they can produce lists to comment on. The fact remains that the market is full of individuals. Some like high production bulls, some don't. No individual index will fulfill every farmers needs. Some advisory groups even advocate £PIN minus price as the way to breed cows. I believe that breeding is a complex issue and cannot be simplified by one index. There are just so many things to consider on each mating.
Oh and by the way Will, there are some great reps out there who have seen more cows, advised more farmers and bred more herds than you will ever do on your individual farm. The good ones are always worth listening to.
Last edited by Bob (Local user), 15/9/2003, 22:51
|
|
15/9/2003, 22:15
|
|
Roy MacGregor
Global user
Registered: 07-2003
Posts: 59
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Definatly art, I fail to see Wills point on breeders, if you read any breed mags at all there are lots of artists out there. There are breeders doing lots of differant things as well, Skagvale, Quality, Burrkett Falls, 3 completely different type of herds, unfortuneatly, not enough people care that much, (no index). I have myself only purchased 5 doses of semen from Foundation sires, but these guys are trying to be artists, they could care less about #s. Not many AI companys are willing to stick there neck out, this far. Unfortuneatly again guys like Will would not be interested, too type oriented for the comercial breeder, more interested in science. Where is the art in breeding production on production on production? Nothing at all wrong with being a commercial breeder,(thats a fit for me as well) but why be so critical of a breeder who chooses to be type oriented. History tells us breeding that way was not a mistake.
|
|
16/9/2003, 2:18
|
|
foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 1906
Karma: 18 (+18/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
if commercial = profitible
then there must be some semblence of type and longevity in a breeding program as noone can afford to spend a grand+ to cull the heifer who milks 5oo days and never gets in calf.
unfortunately this is happening time after time the more you stack the number one bulls on top of each other.
type and longevity have been sacrifised for high 2yo milk.
We generally look at pedigree first and formost.Lately hubby wont use a bull whose dam hasnt had 3 calves in 5years regardless of her type in an effort to find more fertile cowfamilies.
When we sell a bull ,and we seem to have more and more commercial farmers wander in off the road looking for a holstein bull. , we first have detailed discussions about what his herd is like, what he wants to change , where he wants to be,what bloodlines he has used in the past, what sort of feeding regime, componants etc.Then we pick a bull for him or send him to someone who we know has bulls for to fill the criteria.They almost never chose a bull from the mob in the paddock and most of them become repeat buyers who just say want you to rear X bulls for next year and come and get them when they are ready.So really as stud breeders we really have responsibility for not only our herd but over a number of years for many others.This is where breeding becomes an art not a science!
|
|
16/9/2003, 6:56
|
|
simon powell
EX94
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
With no one still having voted for science, it would be interesting to hear any comments on the relative emphasis between the two, when bull studs devise their matings.
It appears to me that because of the desire to fulfil index (scientific) criteria, the art is often compromised!!
|
|
28/9/2003, 22:20
|
|
alan a
EX95
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
Posts: 746
Karma: 22 (+22/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Might be interesting to ask which bulls were bought as live calves ( bred by the herd owners ) and which were contracted ( bred by the sire analyst ).
Some of the breeding recommendations I have heard over the years have been very much of the 'This is the new hot bull and we're not sure how to use him yet, so will just mate him to all sorts of cows and hope it works somewhere'
Mandel was a case in point.
Holstein International did a bit a few years ago were they showed that a bulls first group of sons were generally not as good as those born a year later. This was partly because the analysts had by then worked out how to use bull correctly.
|
|
29/9/2003, 8:35
|
|
alan a
EX95
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
Posts: 746
Karma: 22 (+22/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
sorry tech fault ( too stupid to use computer )
Last edited by alan a, 29/9/2003, 8:39
|
|
29/9/2003, 8:36
|
|
alan a
EX95
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
Posts: 746
Karma: 22 (+22/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
and getting worse
Last edited by alan a, 29/9/2003, 8:40
|
|
29/9/2003, 8:36
|
|
alan a
EX95
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Fermanagh
Posts: 746
Karma: 22 (+22/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
finally finished sending the same message
Last edited by alan a, 29/9/2003, 8:40
|
|
29/9/2003, 8:38
|
|
Bob
Local user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I have just got back from Ireland visiting some farms with breeders from Herefordshire. We went to four farms all different, using different bulls, different ideals - but four very switched on breeders.
They were Michael Moroney, Des OConner, Pat Frawley and John Cunnane. They had all sourced much of their herds from top cow families some years ago and were breeding on some great cows. Pat Frawleys Croagh herd was the ultimate high type herd. Every cow in his herd was either EX or waiting to go Ex. He had accessed top families from UK, USA and Canada and was using high type sires to breed stunning animals.His bull selection was straight off the top shelf for high type - Storm, Integrity, etc. We were mightily impressed. So are his customers - he sells plenty of animals.
We next went to see John Cunnane at the Lynbrook herd. Pat Frawley was going to be hard act to follow but John also had a tremendous herd of cows - not quite as fancy but he had combined high type with high componants, index and longevity. This man had 6th calf Excellent Mountains that looked like 2nd or 3rd calvers.Anyone who can breed the cows he has, using the bulls he has, has got to be highly commended. He was not afraid to try things and used both Art and Science in way that I don't think I have seen before. He had many Excellent cows with very high proteins that were obviously lasting. Go and see this man. A classifier may go to his farm and say it was a good herd. A breeder who appreciates what the cows were by and the overall index, the type and protein levels would be mightily impressed.
I think the key to all these breeders sucess, however, was starting from great cow families. They had imported embryos and live animals. Breeding for one single trait is relatively straight forward ie Capacity or udder cleft or butterfat or protein etc but when you try and put it all together like John has successfully done then it is a real art!
Last edited by Bob (Local user), 29/9/2003, 12:55
|
|
29/9/2003, 12:33
|
|
mark lee
GP84
Global user
Registered: 09-2003
Posts: 41
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
What do you guys think about the triple A system used over here in the states?
The general idea of it is that a bull gets his own set of trait scores and so does the cow,you then try and fit these numbers accordingly to find the most suitable mate.
Now,is this a scientific tool,or is it classed as an art form for the guys who determine the animals aaa scores?
I have seen some suggested matings for cows using the triple a system and it has made me very sceptical about this system,however if you visit herds that have been users of this system for some time the results are surprisingly good.
|
|
30/9/2003, 0:10
|
|
Bob
Local user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
aAa has been used as a mating system in UK by the old British Holstein Society.
Firstly, any mating programme is better than none at all. A mating programme can turn a 1 point type bull into a 2 point type bull by using it on the right cows. Equally so you can turn a $30 bull into a $10 bull by using it on totally the wrong cow.
aAa is an old system that works. It was developed before progeny testing when all they had to go at was what the bull looked like. I think it helps sort out the skeletal and texture side of things but other than providing a perfect cradle for an udder, I could never see how we could correct udder faults using this system. Maybe someone can enlighten me.
Having said that,from what I have seen, if you use good udder sires and get aAa to mate them - it will breed you good framy cows with a good blend of dairy strength.
Today, things have moved on and there are far more advanced mating programmes available which can take everything into account and no doubt they have become extremely popular with both the commercial and pedigree man, alike. There is now more thought going into more matings on a global scale than ever before. I understand that Select Sires mated over 3 million cows last year using its mating programme. Add in all the others and we should see a rapid improvement in the average cow across the globe.
aAa will still have its followers and why not - it has worked well for them.
Last edited by Bob (Local user), 30/9/2003, 10:14
|
|
30/9/2003, 10:00
|
|
broa
EX97
Isangoma
Global user
Registered: 12-2003
Location: Martebo
Posts: 2283
Karma: 51 (+52/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Hello everyone,
A late friend of mine used to say that to be successful in cattle breeding you need four things.
knowledge, patience, luck and money,
and then he would say that if you didn't have enough of the first two, you needed more of the last two.
Personally, after breeding cows for 25 years, I have made some conclusions, the cow definitely don't need to be scored exellent to efficiently produce a lot of milk during a long life.
to do that she need a good udder, locomotion, a strong immune system and she need to be fertile.
I think we are shoting our self in the foot by breeding for the pretty cow, thinking that by making her good looking we will automatically solve all the problems.
A massive study in the USA concluded that the registred cow only lasted 3 more months compared to the grades.
In my opinion the pampering of the registered cows should turn up a larger difference than a measly 3 months.
finaly, to answer the question, as a number of people already said, it's a combination of the two but the scale is slowly tipping towards science as long as you know how to use the indexes.
regards Tommy ingemarsson
---
HAVE YOU VOTED FOR COWTALK YET?
|
|
2/12/2003, 0:22
|
|
Bob
Local user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Shropshire / Welsh Border
Posts: 145
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
The Art of using Science?
|
|
2/12/2003, 20:03
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 2757
Karma: 32 (+32/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
quote:
broa wrote:
I thought we where talking about the four legged kind here,
breeding for the pretty cow has lead to serious inbreeding with poor fertillity as a result.
Why not learn to appreciate the cow thats hard working, stay healthy and breed back easily, regardless if she's pretty or just plain ?
We do appreciate those attributes, but the prettier she is the more we appreciate them.
|
|
2/12/2003, 21:26
|
|
Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 2757
Karma: 32 (+32/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I think you missed the point I was making, broa.
You can have hard working, fertile and healthy cows that are attractive to look at, they don't have to be plain to meet these criteria.
We also started using our first Holstein bulls 20 years ago. I can't say we get any more still born because of this.
Good looking cows tend to get more attention faster when they do have a problem because we do tend to care that bit more for them. I think we call it management.
No argument that a 100 tonne cow is a very worthwhile one, but I would say a VG or EX 100 tonne cow would be more satisfying than a G. Haven't bred one myself because historically our system didn't push for particularly high yields and our cows weren't up to it, but a small number of cows here are working their way up now.
Strangely this is happening with North American style genetics.
|
|
2/12/2003, 23:10
|
|
broa
EX97
Isangoma
Global user
Registered: 12-2003
Location: Martebo
Posts: 2283
Karma: 51 (+52/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
What difference does it make if the trouble free, hard working cow is pretty or plain ?
by accepting the good cow regardless of what she looks like, we can maintain a broader genetic base and I for one think that will be of great importance for the future.
How many great cows have been culled before their time just because they where plain and the owner wanted to give that pretty one an extra chance instead ?
All of us that have a passion for breeding tend to get emotionally involved with our cows and that has a way of interfering with good judgement, my self included.
I have not always let the performance of the cows speak for it self when I've decided who has to go and who gets to stay, more than once I've shipped a trouble free cow that happen to be plain just so that pretty one could get an extra chace.
You may call it management but I think I was just being stupid.
I'm using Freelance, Titanic, Stormatic, Lancelot, Ramos, O-man, best, Sabre and Merdignac.
Milking 100 cows averaging 10100kg 4.2%f 3.4%p average score 82.5 at 151 centimeters they are borderline too big for our housing.
---
HAVE YOU VOTED FOR COWTALK YET?
|
|
3/12/2003, 10:09
|
|
click here to give a full reply or use the box below for a quick reply
Page: 1 2 3
Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b - Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 7/10/2008, 14:55
|
|
|
/Sire/VirDir/14HO02586s_01_Paradise-R%20Sailor%2095-ET%20EX-95.jpg)
