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Big Bird
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
hang on a minute, first you say what a bad effect north american genetics are having on you cows, then you list them as the bulls you are using. Or am I getting this wrong?
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3/12/2003, 10:14
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foxleigh
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
this could be the dilemma a lot of breeders find!
It is very hard to find holstein bloodlines in this world that havent had some sort of north american influence in their pedigrees.
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3/12/2003, 11:49
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foxleigh
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
why not mention some of the other bulls deemed to be unknown? personally always happy to hear about something different.
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3/12/2003, 13:16
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canuk
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
In 25 years of breeding cows, can only remember a few stillborns and they were probably my own fault. Trying to help the cow to soon, not geting up in the middle of the night soon enough, that sort of thing. Feel if your getting over 10%, maybe you should try a camera in your maternity pens, maybe your hired labor isn't up to the task, something is obviously out of sink, and I dought it is your sire choices. If you only aim to be average, wheres the satisfaction in breeding to come from? and if it is only health traits your interested in have you considered Danish sires, as they have been doing this for a number of years now, and they may have what your looking for.
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3/12/2003, 17:57
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broa
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
already have a camera and the management is the same as it has been over the last 25 years.
I'm usually the one to assist at calving if necessary so the only thing that has changed over the years are the bulls I use.
the problem at calving is not so much that the calves are overly big, it's more like they don't seem to have any spark in them at birth.
the calving can be quite easy and the calf might be lost anyway.
this is a known problem with inbreeding.
the change in my herd also closely follows the change of the national holstein population here in sweden as well as in denmark.
in 1982 I was working in a 60 cow herd in canada, we lost eleven calves in a year and no, I where not in charge of the maternity ward.
The not so well known bulls I use are swedish,
Puck = patron x merril, Gothem = Celsius x thor, Amiral = fatal x thor, Kärrshult = fecamp x mountain.
and danish.
Bojer = juror x ares, Etlar = lukas x aerostar.
edit: - Who said I aim for average cows ?
I aim for the most efficient producer possible and I'm willing to let her look which ever way she wants.
I aim for a cow that are trouble free,drop a calf every twelve to fifteen months,don't get sick and reach a hundred tonnes in six to eight lactations.
If a cow that meet these standards would happen to be ugly I'd be crying all the way to the bank.
Last edited by broa, 4/12/2003, 21:25
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"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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4/12/2003, 10:00
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Hello Broa,
I think an awful lot depends on exactly how you define "ugly"!
There are many cows that will never win a show or classify excellent, that are still capable of meeting the standards that you require. These cows are probably best described as "functional" rather than "ugly".
I take your point that at the very highest level, producing a show winner, means paying attention to traits that have little relevence to the longevity and efficiency of that animal.
Also that because our most prized and valuable animals are given more chances in terms of fertility and mastitis, we are preserving poor fertility and mastitis resistence in some bloodlines that would be erradicated if the family was subjected to the same commercial pressures as "grade cows".
I firmly believe though, that some traits such as suspensory ligament, udder texture and locommotion are essential for any cow to lead a long and productive life, whether she scores 81 or 95 points!!!!!!
There are plenty of "ugly" cows that do not stand a chance of lasting two lactations let alone eight!!!!!! "Ugly" does not equate to fertile and healthy!!!!!
I think I understand the point that you are making, (that we all undervalue sound, productive, trouble-free herd cows which are in danger of being lost from our future gene pool). It's just that I feel like Big Bird, we need to aspire to produce all these qualities in a "pretty" cow.
Then we really will "have it all"!!!!
Two quick points:
1. Really appreciated your quote regarding Knowledge, Patience, money and Luck. Spot on!!
2. Regarding still births. Have CVM, mineral deficiencies and viral challenge all been investigated?
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4/12/2003, 23:34
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broa
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I believe that to be able to even come close to have a herd of cows meet my goals in my own lifetime, i can't afford to concern myself too much with looks.
so yes, they could perhaps best be described as functional but too often I've heard people snear at such cows, making comments about their "uglyness".
my experience tell me that a cow need a good udder, a strong immune system and fertility, locomotion and the right kind of temperament ( a bit stubborn, not easily exited or scared ) the temperament becomes important at times of missfortune. cows have a way of getting into predicaments and when that happen she might seriously injure herself should she panic.
the ones that easily get all exited can't handle stress as well and therefore are more likely to catch mastitis.
I know of some high fliers that has to be doped out of their skull before they can enter the tanbark, that's too high a price to pay for beauty if you ask me.
to make matters worse they sell embryos and livestock out of such cows, that is not "breed improvement" in my opinion
the index people focus too much attention on a few high index animals but on the other hand the type people focus on "all" the families with generation after generation of vg or ex
I think both are wrong.
about still births, the answer to all your questions are yes.
Last edited by broa, 5/12/2003, 13:18
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"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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5/12/2003, 13:15
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
I believe that to attain a herd of cows to meet your goals, you will have to concern yourself with "looks"!!!!!
O.K. maybe not showring looks. The point is that all these "ugly", "plain" or "functional" cows that you describe with the ability to survive and produce with the best,have strengths in certain critical type traits.
They may not be pretty, but their structure has to be sound in order to allow them to perform as you wish.
I prefer to use sires with extreme type traits, and constantly aim to breed to the image of an ideal that I have in my mind. Perhaps it's because I am rubbish at this that along the way I produce plenty of animals that you would class as plain, and one or two that you might think were ugly!! If my sire selection was less demanding regarding type, I wonder at the amount of daughters that I would produce that would be totally "unfunctional!!!!" (one lactation wonders!!).
Also, the need for type is reflected in the value of surplus stock sold. Customers come back because your animals produced and lasted, the price they pay is governed by pedigree and appearance!!!!!!!
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5/12/2003, 14:43
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buckeyebreeder
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
broa, You must have some lurking evil in your herd to have that many stillborns. I consider myself to be horrible when it comes to getting up and actually walking out to the barn at 2am to check on a cow, unless I am expecting something special, it doesn't normally happen. I don't see more then one or two "stillborn" calves a year. Now and then something will happen like a breach calf or twins and then I get a stillborn, but I blame those things on me or occurances beyond my control.
How often do you vaccinate for Lepto, and if you do have you had your herd tested for the spiro version of Lepto that until recently had been undetectable by previous tests. Your problem sounds more like a viral problem then an inbreeding problem.
If you truely believe that Inbreeding is a problem in your herd, do you use an inbreeding calculator and evaluate your matings thoroughly. Because if you do then inbreeding should not be a problem North American genetics or not. My herd is 99% North American genetics and I do not see the problems you describe. I have all types of cows show, index, ugly, sound but all have to milk. My herd is 90% registered and I have accurate records on all cows going back at least 30 years. The 10% that are grade are all decendants from cows my grandfather milked and he had Holshire, cows as he often crossed Holsteins and Ayrshires. They have been bred Holstein only for the last 30 years.
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5/12/2003, 18:52
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smous
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
If we want protein, we select for protein, etc, etc.
If you want longevity, select for it, be it PL, Durability Stayability, or whatever it is called. Big problem is its lower heritability, especially while the bull is young. If we check out the longevity improvers at 99% reliability there are a plethora of high type bulls eg. Jolt, Outside, Skychief, Formation, Durham (now that was a PC little list wasn't it!)
Selecting extreme type in the hope that this will improve longevity is not the answer, look at Integrity and Leducs' longevity figures.
Linear correlations such as intermediate dairyness and strength, strong fore udder attachment and shallow udders and legs that track straight from behind get us a long way there, but there will be a bull that has high longevity scores that is the exception to every one of these rules. The biggest single thing that keeps cows in herds is her ability to get back in calf, this overides everything else.
Roebuck bred high pins and had long teats and so so SCS but his daughters lasted. First off they milked a flood so their owners wanted to breed them back and secondly they were fertile cows. Roll on the day they identify the fertility gene!
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WWS-SA
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5/12/2003, 20:27
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buckeyebreeder
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Gotta agree with Smous on the Roebucks, mine have been the top cows in my county for milk production for several of the last ten years. I used to believe that they were indestructable, but that proved to be inaccurate. I asked my Accelerated rep a couple years back, in jest, if they had any Roebuck left. He said he had 20 units on the truck and he sold them to me for a dollar a piece. I have eight Roebuck two year olds right now and the old ones keep on rolling. I have two that are right at 225,000 pounds. I am not too picky when it comes to bulls that I know deliver sound cows that I can use for instant improvement of bottem feeders in the herd that should probably be culled if I didn't have to make a profit somehow.
If I culled cows like I threaten to, I would only milk about 10 cows instead of 110!!!!!
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6/12/2003, 5:24
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
I have raised the point in previous threads, and totally agree with you that cow "personality" plays a huge part in their ability to perform and survive. All the most productive cows that I have owned have been total gluttons!!
The determination to recover when met by some health challenge is also crucial to their longevity.
My point is that, it is simple to recognise these traits in females when you work with them on a daily basis. Most cowtalk contributors will have cows like this, that they own and value. The difficulty comes from actually quantifying these traits to others. There is also no selection process on the male side of the breed that promotes the bulls that produce this sort of daughter, because it's impossible to measure.( it is too subjective).
To summarise, I agree that the type of cow you describe needs to be valued. I struggle to see though, how it is possible to select bulls to maintain these characteristics.
The aggresive, greedy , boss cows that I have known, have usually been pretty good at passing these traits onto their offspring. It certainly runs in families. The problem as I see it, is that the original cow has usually occurred as a freak of nature, rather than by any grand design on the part of the breeder. I think that they occur, rather than are created!!!
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6/12/2003, 10:08
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broa
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Simon,
It might be a challenge to breed for longevity but so was going to the moon.
by breeding for udders, daughter fertility, mastitis resistance and locomotion we should be, at least, heading the right way.
I think that the exellent cow is just as much a freak of nature, skilled breeders have learn to stack the odds in their favor so they occur more often.
I'm convinced that if we shifted the selection preasure towards "my" kind of cow, we would be sucessful.
the main problem is that who would give up on a good business ( as you said, type generates money ) and the pretty cows are so darn nice to look at ;-)
---
"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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6/12/2003, 13:14
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canuk
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Have there not been studies done that prove, breeding for a higher classification, leads to more milk in a liftime??
Recall seeing something on this, realize the real low scoreing cows tend to get culled, Bad udders, Bad legs, whatever useualy the low scoreing cow gets culled because shes just not capable of lasting. Any cow scored G.P that can milk like heck, and breed back every 12 to 15 months, is valuable to anyone. But why be satisfied with that, don't see the point in not aiming a little higher.
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6/12/2003, 13:37
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Big Bird
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
quote:
canuk wrote:
Any cow scored G.P that can milk like heck, and breed back every 12 to 15 months, is valuable to anyone. But why be satisfied with that, don't see the point in not aiming a little higher.
Quite agree canuk, a milky GP cow is a valuable asset, but not as valuable or satisfying as a milky VG cow. You have to aim to improve a little each generation.
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65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
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6/12/2003, 14:14
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broa
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
canuk,
the most comprehensive study, to my knowledge, ever done on this, including 800 000 animals showed an advatage of 3 months in favor of the registered cow over the grade.
I think it's fairly safe to assume that the registerd cow on average is scored higher then your average grade cow.
I think it's also a fairly safe assumption to be made that the registered cow on average is subject to a higher level of management which should by itself allow for more than just 3 months extra lifetime.
the main reason as to why the exellent cow may last longer than a cow of lower score is breeder preference and preferential treatment.
I almost wanted to quit this business when these facts became clear to me but it sure explained alot of things that I had experienced in my own herd.
nowadays I've learn to enjoy the radiant looks of the milky, healty, easy moving and vigorous cow regardless of her score.
the way i see it, it will be very difficult to go about breeding for longevity as a single breeder but if a large enough portion of the global breeding community decide to make an effort at this, then we should be able to be sucessful.
If you limit yourself by only selecting from the part of the genepool that might result in animals scoring exellent than this will be even more difficult to achieve, at least not without serious inbreeding issues which will be counter productive to the goal of longevity.
---
"Dum spiro, spero"
Cicero
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6/12/2003, 16:16
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
The focus of this debate seems to change a little as the discussion evolves,but if we are talking about highly productive, long lived, trouble-free cows,which I think we are, then:
1. There are two main aspects that contribute to the creation of this type of cow. Conformation and personality.
You seem to imply that the only reason an excellent cow lives a long time and produces well, is because of preferential treatment. That we should all actually be trying to breed 82pt herd cows because this is the recipe to success. Whilst I can appreciate the merit in these cows, I HAVE TO DIFFER!!!!!
There will be superstars amongst your GP cows, but there will be more amongst your excellent cows. Holstein UK have conducted studies that show clearly that production correlates to classification (in the UK).To declare that this is all due to preferential treatment is folly!!
2. Breeding for longevity is not difficult. As an individual breeder all you have to do is concern yourself with the type traits that have the greatest influence in this respect. To concentrate on the females and families within your herd that have a proven ability to perform in your system for many lactations, and take note of health traits on bulls used (albeit they have low heritabilities).
It makes me smile that the industry talks about very little other than longevity at the moment, after a decade of talking about very little other than production. Can they be surprised that after so long paying no attention to lifespan, it could now do with improvement!!
WE could then start to talk about environmental effects on lifespan (which is a whole new subject) are the cows that you breed expected to live in a palace or a hell-hole? I suggest that a different type of cow thrives in each!!!
3. You make much of inbreeding and suggest that this is the root of many of your troubles. I acknowledge that it is more difficult to find outcrosses as the dairy genetics industry becomes more global, but they still exist. With careful mating decisions and attention paid to inbreeding pitfalls I don't see this problem as insummountable.
Afterall the bloodlines that are prominent have become thus because of their ability to deliver!!
I take most of your points Broa, but feel that you have become slightly too disillusioned with your highly classified cows. This may be a problem with your classification system, or even with your own production system, but if you really can't forgive them, I'm sure there is a whole host of us who would swap them for the GP variety you now prefer!!
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6/12/2003, 17:18
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
You do not understand!!!!!
You are not causing aggravation, you are creating a really interesting debate............please continue on this, and other subjects!!!!!!!
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6/12/2003, 19:51
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I can sort of see where Broa is coming from.
A GP cow is one which has everything in the right place without being extreme. Having seen quite a few of the 95/96 point cows (on farm in the US) that are currently floating around I would say whilst they are good cows most of them would struggle in our farming situation.yes we have used sons of them but most of these are by strength bulls like linjet and encore.
In our own herd a GP or high G heifer stands a greater chance of being a VG 6th calver than a VG heifer does.We have had many animals miss out on STP(supior type &production award - 6 finished lacts ,min 50,000l lifetime,VG &VG for udder)but go onto get the 70,000l /80,000l/90,000l lifetime award.
Regarding his calving problems I wonder if he has neospora bacteria floating around.Also we have noticed that the majority of our born deads (integrity and raider the 2 worst sires)appear to have had their ribs cronically squashed when getting pulled out,draw 3 breaths and die.(on an aside last month I threatened my obstrician to go home and sniff the oxytocin bottle if my kid didnt come soon and he told me that not so long ago they induced babies with oral PG and lost babies hand over fist as the contractions were so strong the babies were literally sqeezed to death I went home and asked dear beloved if that was the reason for losing some of those calves ? having had a pregnancy that started with ketosis and finshed with high blood pressure an induction and ceasar I now have every sympathy for the poor old cow)
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6/12/2003, 20:57
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foxleigh
Ex97
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
do the 2 groups have similar ages ?
or is the higher classifed group older?
would you say that the higher classified group is less dairy than the higher production group?
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7/12/2003, 19:32
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Big Bird
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Our herd is a relatively young one in pedigree terms, grading up from commercial just over 10 years ago and only getting more serious over the last 5 years.
We have had 6 excellent cows here, 4 homebred and 2 bought in as older brood cows.All average over comfortably over 100 on CPI, in fact between them there is only one lactation below 100.
All of them lived their lives as part of the herd with no special treatment.
None of them would be show cows. All but one would be in the 58 - 60 inch range. All would be correct cows with a good blend of strength and dairyness, good udders and good locomotion.
One is still a 3rd calver today, all the others are or were 5 lactations or more.
Would I swop any of them for a GP cow to do the same job?
NOT A CHANCE!!!
I don't want excellent cows for the sake of being excellent, they have to work as well and in our case they do this really well.
Maybe only goes to prove that you can make any set of figures show what you want if you have a mind to.
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65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
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8/12/2003, 12:49
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simon powell
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Will,
In your post you suggest that all ten cows in your example will be bred pure. I am very interested to know whether you will use different philosophies to breed each group? Or whether they will all be bred to similar bulls?
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8/12/2003, 16:12
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