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simon powell
EX94
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Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
The focus of this debate seems to change a little as the discussion evolves,but if we are talking about highly productive, long lived, trouble-free cows,which I think we are, then:
1. There are two main aspects that contribute to the creation of this type of cow. Conformation and personality.
You seem to imply that the only reason an excellent cow lives a long time and produces well, is because of preferential treatment. That we should all actually be trying to breed 82pt herd cows because this is the recipe to success. Whilst I can appreciate the merit in these cows, I HAVE TO DIFFER!!!!!
There will be superstars amongst your GP cows, but there will be more amongst your excellent cows. Holstein UK have conducted studies that show clearly that production correlates to classification (in the UK).To declare that this is all due to preferential treatment is folly!!
2. Breeding for longevity is not difficult. As an individual breeder all you have to do is concern yourself with the type traits that have the greatest influence in this respect. To concentrate on the females and families within your herd that have a proven ability to perform in your system for many lactations, and take note of health traits on bulls used (albeit they have low heritabilities).
It makes me smile that the industry talks about very little other than longevity at the moment, after a decade of talking about very little other than production. Can they be surprised that after so long paying no attention to lifespan, it could now do with improvement!!
WE could then start to talk about environmental effects on lifespan (which is a whole new subject) are the cows that you breed expected to live in a palace or a hell-hole? I suggest that a different type of cow thrives in each!!!
3. You make much of inbreeding and suggest that this is the root of many of your troubles. I acknowledge that it is more difficult to find outcrosses as the dairy genetics industry becomes more global, but they still exist. With careful mating decisions and attention paid to inbreeding pitfalls I don't see this problem as insummountable.
Afterall the bloodlines that are prominent have become thus because of their ability to deliver!!
I take most of your points Broa, but feel that you have become slightly too disillusioned with your highly classified cows. This may be a problem with your classification system, or even with your own production system, but if you really can't forgive them, I'm sure there is a whole host of us who would swap them for the GP variety you now prefer!!
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6/12/2003, 17:18
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simon powell
EX94
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Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Broa,
You do not understand!!!!!
You are not causing aggravation, you are creating a really interesting debate............please continue on this, and other subjects!!!!!!!
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6/12/2003, 19:51
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foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
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Location: southern,oz
Posts: 2196
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
I can sort of see where Broa is coming from.
A GP cow is one which has everything in the right place without being extreme. Having seen quite a few of the 95/96 point cows (on farm in the US) that are currently floating around I would say whilst they are good cows most of them would struggle in our farming situation.yes we have used sons of them but most of these are by strength bulls like linjet and encore.
In our own herd a GP or high G heifer stands a greater chance of being a VG 6th calver than a VG heifer does.We have had many animals miss out on STP(supior type &production award - 6 finished lacts ,min 50,000l lifetime,VG &VG for udder)but go onto get the 70,000l /80,000l/90,000l lifetime award.
Regarding his calving problems I wonder if he has neospora bacteria floating around.Also we have noticed that the majority of our born deads (integrity and raider the 2 worst sires)appear to have had their ribs cronically squashed when getting pulled out,draw 3 breaths and die.(on an aside last month I threatened my obstrician to go home and sniff the oxytocin bottle if my kid didnt come soon and he told me that not so long ago they induced babies with oral PG and lost babies hand over fist as the contractions were so strong the babies were literally sqeezed to death I went home and asked dear beloved if that was the reason for losing some of those calves ? having had a pregnancy that started with ketosis and finshed with high blood pressure an induction and ceasar I now have every sympathy for the poor old cow)
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6/12/2003, 20:57
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foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 2196
Karma: 21 (+21/-0)
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
do the 2 groups have similar ages ?
or is the higher classifed group older?
would you say that the higher classified group is less dairy than the higher production group?
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7/12/2003, 19:32
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Big Bird
Cowtalk Staff
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Our herd is a relatively young one in pedigree terms, grading up from commercial just over 10 years ago and only getting more serious over the last 5 years.
We have had 6 excellent cows here, 4 homebred and 2 bought in as older brood cows.All average over comfortably over 100 on CPI, in fact between them there is only one lactation below 100.
All of them lived their lives as part of the herd with no special treatment.
None of them would be show cows. All but one would be in the 58 - 60 inch range. All would be correct cows with a good blend of strength and dairyness, good udders and good locomotion.
One is still a 3rd calver today, all the others are or were 5 lactations or more.
Would I swop any of them for a GP cow to do the same job?
NOT A CHANCE!!!
I don't want excellent cows for the sake of being excellent, they have to work as well and in our case they do this really well.
Maybe only goes to prove that you can make any set of figures show what you want if you have a mind to.
---
65 cows - 9500 litres @ 3.8 fat, 3.25 protein. 25 VG, 4 EX
Also rear surplus dairy heifers + beef stores.
Simple system, grass based, no TMR. No full time labour.
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8/12/2003, 12:49
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simon powell
EX94
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Registered: 06-2003
Posts: 477
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
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Re: CATTLE BREEDING....... ART OR SCIENCE?
Will,
In your post you suggest that all ten cows in your example will be bred pure. I am very interested to know whether you will use different philosophies to breed each group? Or whether they will all be bred to similar bulls?
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8/12/2003, 16:12
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