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AndrewR
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Re: Moet Nansen
Pleased to say I have. Strong cattle with a bit of umph. perfect leg set with good locomotion, but not ultra fine bone quality. Udders have more quality than dad does, especially in udder depth and fore udder attachment. We are very proud of the Cadet family, for me one of the best breeding families in the UK today, if you want to come and have a look, our doors are always open
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9/6/2005, 8:13
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Bullpen
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Re: Moet Nansen
He is another one that benefits greatly from the new rump formula being as close to zero on angle and width as possible, to score as close to 3 on composite as is possible.
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14/11/2005, 20:39
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Gavin56
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I got one in milk.
Nansen X Warden X Sovereign Star!
Sure shortened the dam`s tits.
She`s giving a load of milk despite not being at all " dairy".
Have ordered more semen.
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15/11/2005, 1:58
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Bullpen
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Re: Moet Nansen
quote:
mckeague wrote:
Nothing like a disparaging remark is there Bob? 
sorry Mckeague, I am not with you. I am trying to stimulate debate on rump structure thats all - alan sees where I am coming from.
Nansen is not the sort of bull I want to be critical of. He is properly tested by a reputable company and will probably do exactly what it says on the can and serve his buyers well.
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15/11/2005, 17:26
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AndrewR
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Re: Moet Nansen
We are really pleased with the performance of Nansen, his great lifespan score is really being borne out on test farms, and I love the positive feedback from the guys that milk them. We are using him as a sire of sons. With regards to rump, it is a really contentious issue. If you have slopey assed cows, you want to raise them a little more to minimise cattle creeping when they move around, and vice versa, high pinned cows need correcting. For me, pin width is the key. I AI at home, and to be honest the PIN angle does not upset me as much as the width. I know if I have a problem getting my hand in, we sure as hell are going to have a problem in 9 months. Nansen has always impressed me like Tugolo in this area.
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16/11/2005, 19:34
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Bullpen
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Re: Moet Nansen
Andrew I sent you my formula for rump structure. Did you study it or pass it on to your statistical department?
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16/11/2005, 20:15
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AndrewR
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Re: Moet Nansen
Yes I did. But as you are aware, I am a cow man, no mathemetician, so I passed it onto Marj, our genetic genius state side. Rumps are a real issue in the UK, and I would love to get away from high pinned, tight arsed cattle, and give everyone Outside, prelude, mtoto, etc rumps, but the problem is like Gerbrich highlighted, not everyone is starting from the same point. Whereas legs and feet (To a point) and udder composites are easy to work to, i.e. the higher the better, rumps need to be looked at. Im glad it has a low rating on overall type, but im glad Holstein UK have gone for a score, because believe me, farmers want to improve this area of the cow. It continues to be a work in progress, and im really pleased they are happy to work on this composite, rather than just leaving it the same. I think I have already expressed my jealousy of the Canadian (syrup) system where they continually tweak aspects to keep the evaluation system fluid. This is what we need to keep doing. Bob, how excited are you about the reliabilities of US sires?
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16/11/2005, 20:39
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Bullpen
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Re: Moet Nansen
In what respect Andrew? The number of daughters needed to hit certain reliability percentage or how daughter numbers in proofs are on the increase or how they have performed in relation to their promise in recent years?
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17/11/2005, 18:36
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AndrewR
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Re: Moet Nansen
how our correlation has dropped between the UK and USA, and thus reliabilities have fallen
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17/11/2005, 19:05
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Bullpen
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Re: Moet Nansen
I think this is definitely an unwelcome result of interbull.It is very difficult to understand and to explain.
If the bulls turn out exactly as interbull have promised then correlation factors will rise and vice versa. We need the UK proofs for USA bulls to closely mirror their interbull projections for this correlation to rise. If Interbull get it wrong and then the UK results for these bulls show big differences - up or down then the we lose correlation. The more we lose correlation, the more that interbull make their proof calculations on parentage. It is a vicious circle.
We want a correlation of 1 so that the projections here are based solely on results over there - not interbull putting there own correction factors and muddying the waters. Classic examples are how the UK over exagerated the proof of Mascot and Mandel. It made all imported Mascot and Mandel sons look far better than they were. The USa were describing these sons as average but UK interbull proofs showed them to be exceptional. When the proofs come out, their figures are disappointing and so correlations drop. Not our fault, not USA fault, but interbull mechanics could not cope with UK getting the parentage figure wrong in the first place.
Once on this slope you can only go one way. The less the correlation, the more that goes on to parentage, the more likely it is to be wrong. All importing countries lose reliability in relation to daughter numbers of home country. If you remember Cogent trying to promote their bulls by selling them at over 80% reliability.
This was because home grown bulls were allowed to get to 80% with far less daughters than imported ones. A USA bull would need well over 140 daughters to get to 80% reliability in this country but a UK tested one can reach that figure with half that number.
The amount of parentage put into bull proofs is directly proportional to its reliability figure so an import at 60% is getting one hell of lot more parentage in its proof to a home tested bull at 85% even though daughter numbers may be the same!
Obviously bulls at 99% reliability have zilch parent average but imports even with 1000's of daughters have their reliabilities reduced by the square of its correlation factor so an 80% reliability bull in USA imported into UK at say 0.9 correlation (not sure what new figure is)= 80 x 0.9 squred = 80 x 0.81 =64.8%.
So two bulls tested identically to 80% reliability in different countries being sold against each other in eithers home country will be sold with a 15% disadvantage in reliability and the consequential extra parent average distortion as well.
It also means that a 95% reliability bull with a thousand daughters from abroad would be sold here at less than 80 % reliability here which is equivalent to around 60 daughters!
So in my opinion the situation can only get worse as interbull takes less and less notice of actual daughter performance in country of origin. Bulls without the right parents will never get a chance of success which will result in a massive narrowing of the gene pool. At the moment Interbull in UK is being very generous to Storm sons. Anything by Storm - good or bad is getting a healthy boost in the UK. Watch out!
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18/11/2005, 8:52
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PEOVEREYE
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…Moet Nansen
Anybody heard or seen on HUK website nansen sire has changed he was a Tugolo son now he a Wilpe Dennis who is a pretty non descript bull out of Alameada .Some **** up but does show that test bulls can throw proven bulls . But would he of ever been sampled if they had known this from the start.
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29/4/2006, 10:23
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Will Richardson
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Re: …Moet Nansen
I've just had a look. Nothing suprises me anymore with what appears to be happening in the Uk at present.
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29/4/2006, 12:35
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Will Richardson
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Re: …Moet Nansen
Nansens ''NEW'' Pedigree
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29/4/2006, 17:13
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Teo81
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Re: …Moet Nansen
You excuse my ignorance: Nansen is TugoloxGibbon or DennisxGibbon ?????? 
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29/4/2006, 17:58
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PEOVEREYE
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Does seem hard to believe but he is now a Dennis X gibbon
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29/4/2006, 19:10
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ben warren
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Re: …
It would be highly embarrassing for Genus if it were true. I know there the local trading standards here are looking into issues involving eartags/passports/pedigrees as an on farm problem. Imagine if something has been wrongly marketed nationally.
It could be a mistake at HUK for all we know yet, though. Have to wait and see.
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29/4/2006, 21:04
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Gavin56
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OK I have no idea what is going on here - but his ET full brother is still listed as a Tugolo !!!!
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29/4/2006, 22:34
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Gavin56
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…
He`s born in the same month so presumably from same flush. Not that there couldn`t have been a wrong straw used out of the three put in.
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29/4/2006, 22:37
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PEOVEREYE
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Moet Nansen
I heard half a story and checked out his pedigree on the net which confirmed the half story now i think your letter might be the other half of the story so scan it JB quick.
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1/5/2006, 11:38
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