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MAJESTIC1
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US trip
This is following on a bit from the flush bulls topic!
I was in the US a few weeks back and saw a lot of very marketable cow's.
Shottle Goldwyn and Oman were the three bulls that impressed me most! Shottle rarely misses, Strong good uddered with slightly straight legs!
Goldwyn makes them very showy great udders legs and feet need to protect for strength but can sometimes get it all wrong but not to often!
Oman (i hear the laughs already) but the really good one's are as good as anything we saw, protect him for central ligament and put him on a dairy cow sometimes they can be straight in the leg too!
So these are 3 bulls I would put on a Flush list along with
Jeeves
Megaman
Planet
Erinit
Active
Mac
The other question I have is Advent going to wreck the Red Breed?
He is -900llbs for milk in the US and everyone is flushing to him we saw one cow who had been flushed 3x to ADVENT 
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27/6/2008, 13:16
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smous
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/Sire/VirDir/14HO02586s_01_Paradise-R%20Sailor%2095-ET%20EX-95.jpg)
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Don't want to start another Oman thread/ debate, but I received this e-mail recently from an American breeder, which pretty much backs up what you saw Majestic:
"The Omans are amazing. We had several that got raised 7, 8, or 9 points from first lactation to 2nd lactation. They were 76 or 77 as 2-year-olds, and were scoring VG as 3-year-olds. They have fantastic udders, with excellent udder texture and square teat placement. They don't have a deep cleft, but their udders are wearing well into 2nd and 3rd lactation. I do think that OMan is going to live up to his PL scores and their DPR scores. We are seeing them calving back in 11, 12, and 13 month calving intervals, which, in our herd, is excellent."
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WWS-SA
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27/6/2008, 15:44
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Smurf4
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I agree with this, the udders wear very well from calf to calf.
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27/6/2008, 17:50
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JeffNYRC
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Re: …
I doubt Advent ruins any part of the Holstein breed. I have one here that milks consistent 2x a day everyday. She milks 75-80lbs, and wouldn't be surprised if she completes over 20k which is average. He makes good udders, and does make them fancy. All the advents I have, have good legs, they are dairy throughout, with a slope to their rump. With that said, I am backinf off Advent for a while. Going to concentrate on Goldwyn/Shottle and other bulls. More or less, I have plenty of Advents.
I concur with the shottle comment, as far as legs go. The one I have (well I have two, but the one I bought last year) her legs aren't super, but they are ideal. Good udder, well attached, wide, good teat placement. Ribs angle back, good depth, straight back.. I will have a picture of her soon as well..
The other shottle I have has straight legs, good depth, decent rump, straight back, with a wide chest. Her Dam and Granddam both have wide chests (Dam is a Alta Boss, GDam is a Rubens).
Jeff
Last edited by JeffNYRC, 27/6/2008, 18:08
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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27/6/2008, 18:06
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Mayjay
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Re: …
I doubt any minus milk bull is going to ruin the breed, have you ever heard the saying, " breed for type and cull for production." Milk is only water,... without components. Breeding good type into cattle takes many generations, milk can be injected with just one cross.
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28/6/2008, 4:28
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Jeash
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Re: …
Red and Whites are already irrelevant side shows. You think that commercial farmers are interested in milking them? They milk less than black and whites, test the same, have less type, but they kick like mules in the parlor. I firmly believe that the dumb b$!ch gene is directly tied to red haircoat.
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28/6/2008, 13:24
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Jeash
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Re: US trip
You're the exception. I've worked enough shows and sales throughout the midwest and we have had enough of them at home to have a good sample.
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28/6/2008, 13:34
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Mayjay
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Re: US trip
Alan, I think you misunderstood my milk statement. Milk is only water if it does not contain components is what I was trying to say. I'm a firm believer in having plenty of flavour in my water.
It never ceases to amaze me how the the rest of the world thinks North American cattle don't milk. The Holstein Journal publishes an article every year after the Royal Winter Fair, about the production of the top ten cows in each class. I doubt that many have a herd of cows that resemble these, or a herd that milks like them.
I think the aforementioned are too big also, but I think there is a deeper reason for hostility toward Canadian cattle than they are too big, don't milk, too inbred, export too many and sell your country too much semen.
I think a lot of people on Cowtalk hide behind commercialism. I would have to say that many buy embryos, and flush cows themselves, and buy stock from famous families, put stock in sales or sell to buyers or fellow breeders. If you do any of these things I would not call you a commercial breeder. Maybe I don't understand what commercial means. All I hear about is that milk pays the bills or I'll starve. If you have the money to spend on buying embryos, flushing, and buying at elite sales, you've got more money than I have.
Last edited by Mayjay, 28/6/2008, 16:38
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28/6/2008, 16:18
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MAJESTIC1
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Re: US trip
The point I was trying too make was that using a -900llb bull so intensively is a serious problem in a breed already with very concentrated bloodlines what if another recessive like Blad or CVM shows up in Advent in 5 years time.....no bull should be used that heavy. Also if Advent wasn't used it was a young sire, this is a big gamble is it not more sensible to corrective mate with a B&W?
Out of interest I have culled 2 cow's in 2 years for production most cull's from our herd are Cell count and Fertility I would have thought this is very common throughout UK!
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28/6/2008, 20:17
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JeffNYRC
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Re: …
quote:
Jeash wrote:
Red and Whites are already irrelevant side shows. You think that commercial farmers are interested in milking them? They milk less than black and whites, test the same, have less type, but they kick like mules in the parlor. I firmly believe that the dumb b$!ch gene is directly tied to red haircoat.
Red and Whites kick more than Black and Whites? Come on, thats BS. I have two R&W cows milking, neither one kicks.. In fact I have a B&W Goldwyn that took almost 2 months before she stopped kicking. I have seen both B&W and R&W kick equally. R&W's having less type is more BS. The red Advent I have, who won her class at Carousel this spring, is very typey, and milks consistent. There are cows that milk consistent and cows that milk 130lbs, then drop back. I will take a cow that milk 80lbs/day everyday till she starts to drop off towards the end of her lactation. Also a cow that eats well, does not fuss. I see R&W's and B&W's eating the same.
So get with the program.. The top selling animals SO FAR this year, was a 3month old Talent out of Apple. She went for 190 grand. If she was B&W, I doubt she would have brought that much, but being red, and from a really good family, full sister to Advent.. It helped just a bit.
I also agree strongly with you Majestic. Advent has been used heavily, almost TOO heavily. I used him, and plan to back off for quite a while. The red Talent I have, will likely be a recip or be bred to something B&W. Would be nice to see some RC Shottles, Goldwyns, and other bulls out there to get some different influence in the red breed. Or RC heifers from "elite" familys.
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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28/6/2008, 20:27
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Jeash
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Re: …
I've milked and worked with enough red&whites to stand by my statement about them kicking. I know enough other people who have the same point of view. Jeff, you claim that the red& whites have just as much type. That is completely wrong. How many red and whites at Madison can run with the black and whites? Not that many, I would give you Apple and Redrose and thats it. The third place red and white Jr. 2 at Madison last year was an 82 or 83 point cow (although she should have went VG). You then cite sales figures, the only reason these calves and cows are bringing the dough they are is because they are show cattle and people want to show at Madison and the big show. How many of those calves or cows have commercial appeal? I don't know of too many large herds who are using Advent.
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28/6/2008, 20:47
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triday1
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US trip
Always interesting how different people's oponions differ. The several large producers I know that pay attention to genetics will all say the same thing, potter should have gotton the chances that oman did. Better udders by far, equal health traits(in their oponion), but omans had better components. Haven't heard nil about udders getting better on the omans, but every herd is different. I know one guy that markets a lot that calved some(oman) in to get them from 82-84 over the VG hump(export market hurdle) and regrets it because that plan backfired.
I went to the US national sale the other night. The entire sale was filled with goldwyns and shottles with a smattering of some other things. I went basically to figure out how to use shottle. I had heard the hype, seen how they were scoring and was bracing myself to spend a lot of money on semen but wanted to see some of the hand-picked ones myself. I left the sale not quite satisfied. Definetely a strength bull (much-needed), pin dropper, thurls a touch far back, good udders( good attachments and seam, just not that excessive height and width to the rear udder). Will definetely be good for the US index industry but I don't see the sky high type proof( 2.5 in this country would fit) at all. Definetely the kind that get better and better with age but these 86-89 point two year olds, were they not index cows would be 78-86 cows with the same comment from the classifiers " a little too round, calve her again". From what I have seen he does tend to click well with outside(which baffles me). The popular mating is goldwyn on shottle, but i wonder if that will yield excessive slope to the rump and move the legs back too much(more from goldwyn).
I saw a pile of fresh goldwyns, which were much better than the handful I had seen before.This bull can make a firecracker, not as consistent in his pattern as shottle, and for the most part is being used on the wrong kind of cows for his breeding pattern. The bull needs to be used on WOOD because he is a refiner( honestly in the extreme way that leduc used to). Size varies all over the board(follows maternal) and legs need to be protected. Obviously I can't attest to the production or health traits any more than what the proof says.
I always get stoned for defending advent but I will offer this. He is the only really negative milk bull that keeps getting used hard because of one trait, the guys that have them love them(the classifiers aren't fans, nor most of the show boys because they are round). They milk average in their herds, seem to breed back quick enough, calves come out the size of a beagle and are people's biggest yearlings. It's purely a breeder satisfaction thing. His milk proof isn't stellar but remember he is about 8 years old and 99% reliable, he is already at the reliability level most 10-12 year old bulls land at, and most of them at that level have fallen dramatically on production from their previous levels. This guy never got that chance( next base roll back won't be kind however In a red breed filled with cross after cross to storm he really won't hurt a thing.
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28/6/2008, 21:02
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Jeash
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Re: US trip
Do you think that Goldwyn would cross well on Dundees? I have a Dundee that just went 86 as a 2yr old, with 86 pt F&L, and 87 mam. She is also extremely wide but still walks downhill. Her pedigree goes 94pt Dam with 97pt mam (Cracin Royal), 94 pt Grandam (Command), then 6 or 7 generations of VG or excellent. Her dam is Luck-e Royal Klassy cow. I am going to flush her to Roy first and if she does well I was hoping to use Goldwyn on her. I don't want to drop the money on Goldwyn if she is a poor flusher.
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28/6/2008, 21:11
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Buckeye
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US trip
There is definitely a place for Advent. I just don't like the popular matings with him, Talent, Sept Storm, Rubens, Tribute, Redmarker, etc. I even saw some Advent X Kite eggs advertised in a smaller sale once. I would be much happier if he was being used on milkier black lines, and then brought over to the reds. I am still using him, but only on BnW or RC.
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28/6/2008, 21:51
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JeffNYRC
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Re: …
quote:
Jeash wrote:
I've milked and worked with enough red&whites to stand by my statement about them kicking. I know enough other people who have the same point of view. Jeff, you claim that the red& whites have just as much type. That is completely wrong. How many red and whites at Madison can run with the black and whites? Not that many, I would give you Apple and Redrose and thats it. The third place red and white Jr. 2 at Madison last year was an 82 or 83 point cow (although she should have went VG). You then cite sales figures, the only reason these calves and cows are bringing the dough they are is because they are show cattle and people want to show at Madison and the big show. How many of those calves or cows have commercial appeal? I don't know of too many large herds who are using Advent.
Still going to disagree with your assesment of the R&W's. This spring at the Spring Internation B&W show the grand champion of WDE was there. Who won reserve grand, beating out the likes of Lucy, and other big cows? It wasn't B&W, it was KY-Blue Rubens Marla-RED. A Red holstein, getting reserve grand in a B&W show. The judge was Hank Van Exel. Was a really good show, big Jr 2yr. old class, and each class was very competative. So there are more R&W's than simply Apple and Redrose. A 2yr old last year that placed 7th, that was from this area was scored VG87 EX-MS. She was a red Advent.. So again, there are better animals in those classes at Madison, than what you give credit for.
The reason why the red talent out of Apple went for so much, was because of pedigree. I HIGHLY doubt they forked over 190k because they wanted to show her. They will flush that heifer, and market genetics out of her. You can pay FAR less on a heifer, and win a show. Price does not reflect winning potential. If we used that theory, then I guess people are willing to fork over 800k for Apple to win? No, they want to sell calves out of her..
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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29/6/2008, 0:49
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Mayjay
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Re: …
Informative post Tri-Day. Breeder satisfaction is always more reliable than a proof nowadays.
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29/6/2008, 3:28
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Jeash
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Re: …
Jeff, have you ever been to Madison? If you have then you would have to agree that the R&W show is no comparison to the black and white show. The reason that Apple's genetics are in high demand is because she is a show winner, with a relative who sires show winners.
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29/6/2008, 13:11
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howie32
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Re: …
quote:
JeffNYRC wrote:
R&W's having less type is more BS. The red Advent I have, who won her class at Carousel this spring, is very typey, and milks consistent.
Jeff
Would she have won the B&W class? I have no problem with the Red's, but to say their type as a breed is as good as the B&W's is crazy. If that were true there would certainly be a lot more of them shown against the B&W's.
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29/6/2008, 14:22
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JeffNYRC
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Re: …
quote:
howie32 wrote:
quote:
JeffNYRC wrote:
R&W's having less type is more BS. The red Advent I have, who won her class at Carousel this spring, is very typey, and milks consistent.
Jeff
Would she have won the B&W class? I have no problem with the Red's, but to say their type as a breed is as good as the B&W's is crazy. If that were true there would certainly be a lot more of them shown against the B&W's.
Tough to say, I think stature would have been the major disadvantage, along with width of rump. She does run uphill, has a big front end, with tons of rib. Again, tough call, I never assume before I walk in the ring.
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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29/6/2008, 14:38
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alan a
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Re: US trip
quote:
Mayjay wrote:
Alan, I think you misunderstood my milk statement. Milk is only water if it does not contain components is what I was trying to say. I'm a firm believer in having plenty of flavour in my water.
It never ceases to amaze me how the the rest of the world thinks North American cattle don't milk. The Holstein Journal publishes an article every year after the Royal Winter Fair, about the production of the top ten cows in each class. I doubt that many have a herd of cows that resemble these, or a herd that milks like them.
I think the aforementioned are too big also, but I think there is a deeper reason for hostility toward Canadian cattle than they are too big, don't milk, too inbred, export too many and sell your country too much semen.
I think a lot of people on Cowtalk hide behind commercialism. I would have to say that many buy embryos, and flush cows themselves, and buy stock from famous families, put stock in sales or sell to buyers or fellow breeders. If you do any of these things I would not call you a commercial breeder. Maybe I don't understand what commercial means. All I hear about is that milk pays the bills or I'll starve. If you have the money to spend on buying embryos, flushing, and buying at elite sales, you've got more money than I have.
I never said that north American cows don't milk. Nor do I hide beind commercial as an excuse. I definitely don't have a deep hostility for Canadian cattle.
I worked with and for Semex for 20 years, and still work to some extent with Foundation here in Northern Ireland. I have been to Canada about 15 times on study trips, both for bull daughters, with customers for embryos and cows, and to the Royal. I even developed a liking for Molson Dry, although it leaves a hell of a sore throat next morning. Amazingly I also have some canadian friends.
I believe that Canada offers a unique philosophy and genetic style to world breeders.
However, in that time working with Canadian genetics, the biggest criticism we received was when 'commercial' dairy farmers, who make their main living from the milk cheque, used a bull like Leduc / Counsllor / Charles / Broker etc, because they had seen a few fancy daughters (with big records) at shows.
They found that the average daughter of those bulls could not compete in their systems.
To my mind there are plenty of good balanced breeding bulls, who combine sound production with good type, that you don't need to use the 'one-off wonder' type bull.
I would also suggest that canada's largest semen export numbers are from those balanced sires, rather than the niche show winners.
Those bulls are fine for individual breeders to use carefully, whether for flushing or importing embryos, or to breed the next show queen, but not heavily in a herd situation.
This is a bit longer than intended, so i will get off my soap box now.
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Alan Armstrong
Western Farm Enterprises
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29/6/2008, 18:00
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Jeash
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Re: …
One other thing, if the R&W could compete at Madison with their black counterparts they wouldn't need a seperate show. You don't see the Jersey having a second show for cows with spots do you? The R&W show is the Special Olympics of cow showing. That being said I can see why purebred breeders are chasing the market.
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29/6/2008, 19:18
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Buckeye
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US trip
I have a new signature thanks Jeash!
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29/6/2008, 19:30
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JeffNYRC
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Re: …
quote:
Jeash wrote:
One other thing, if the R&W could compete at Madison with their black counterparts they wouldn't need a seperate show. You don't see the Jersey having a second show for cows with spots do you? The R&W show is the Special Olympics of cow showing. That being said I can see why purebred breeders are chasing the market.
Your comparing apples to oranges. Guernseys, Jerseys, Brown Swiss, Ayrshire, Milking Shorthorn do not have another coat color. You have slight variances with swiss and shorthorns.. Red and Whites/Black and Whites, sure they are both holsteins, but the coat color is noticably different. Having a seperate show, and seperate association is a way to recognize that part of the breed.
I will say that red and whites DO have different blood lines, and it isn't as broad as the black and whites. When you start adding it up, the amount of red and whites pale in comparison as far as numbers go. So to have less red and whites competative with black and whites, it isn't surprising, as there are far less.. Its no different when you go to select a couple heifers to show. If you have 20 spring yearlings to choose from, and 20 summer yearlings. While the next guy has 2 of each. The chances of the guy with more to choose from, winning, is higher..
This spring the carousel had 100 red and whites, the B&W had over 300.
Jeff
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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29/6/2008, 20:11
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Buckeye
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US trip
Red and White have different blood lines? You mean Blackrose, Roxy, Shower?
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29/6/2008, 20:52
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foxleigh
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US trip
I think that it is not so much a case of different bloodlines as a different type of type of dairycow.Not to mention higher componants.
Jeash is your dundee a sister to advantage red? We have his first heifer calf on the ground.A long ,tall powerful B&W x Bossiron.
I have say that everyone who comes to our place be they reg or grade dairyfarmers wants to take our red triple threat bull home with them.His calves are as good as any we've had by AI.
I think that the red holstein has got type traits that the B&W needed improvement on.
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29/6/2008, 22:02
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