fraser6
VG87
Global user
Registered: 09-2006
Posts: 103
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
 | 
|
|
Bull Dams
I read recently in holstein journal a section regarding bull dams.
I may have picked this up wrong but would i be right in saying that some bull dams only ever have one recorded lactation? If so are they constantly flushed and kept in milk ie not ever put in calve and have a natural birth after there first?
Can anyone explain what the deal is?
|
|
11/7/2008, 18:04
|
|
Jeash
EX91
Global user
Registered: 09-2007
Posts: 209
Karma: 3 (+3/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
Yeah, some cows never calve in again due to the fact that they are more valuable as embryo donors. If you can get more than $5000 a flush why calve her in again? Then you get some cows who wont breed back after being on an extensive flush program.
|
|
11/7/2008, 19:08
|
|
fraser6
VG87
Global user
Registered: 09-2006
Posts: 103
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
How can you tell her true value if she has only had one lactation?
Is it not a bit of a risk to use her as a bull dam when she has no real record to speak of?
How do you know if she would get better or worse the more lactations she has.
|
|
11/7/2008, 21:00
|
|
amlkman
EX95
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 593
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
the offspring speak for the cow. Look at Baler twine, one lactation 86 points. And how many good bulls and cows have come from her.
|
|
12/7/2008, 5:28
|
|
Campbeltowncowboy
VG87
Global user
Registered: 03-2007
Posts: 106
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
When a bull mother has only done one lactation and goes onto a flush programe and never has an other lactation how do we producers know that she wouldnt blow her udder on the second 3,4,5th lactation or if she could even go that distance!!!
And we all wonder why our cows are not lasting. As a qualification to be a sire analyst they should have had to milk cows for at least 20years not just be good on a computer!!! 
|
|
12/7/2008, 9:13
|
|
redrobin
VG85
Global user
Registered: 04-2008
Posts: 56
Karma: 1 (+1/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
Absolutely spot on cowboy!
|
|
12/7/2008, 10:12
|
|
AndrewR
EX93
Global user
Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 412
Karma: 9 (+9/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
I have milked cows for 20+ years. Does that mean Im good at my job? Doubtful. Selecting bull dams is all about confidence. Everytime you contract a cow, you risk your job. You think any stud will continue to pay someone who cant graduate bulls? You have a lot of things to think about, cow family, sire stack, mating, ptas, herd size, farmer, cow, management issues, what market are you trying to select for, etc etc. Im not a computer whizz, I start with looking at the cow, and trying to work out whether she can survive and do the job if I took her out of that herd and put her in all our test herds. If she cant cut it there, why take a son. Yes I do take bulls out of heifers. I dont make any apology for this. They generally still have the best genetics, ptas, most modern sire stacks. You make that call when you see the heifer, whether you think it makes a cow. Just like you do when your buying a replacement heifer for your herd. Sometimes, I read this page and I get the impression that Sire Analysts are out there to destroy the breed. They work for companies that need to supply a product, in a very competitive environment. If we dont graduate bulls good enough, or with the wrong strengths, or the wrong type, or the wrong management traits, breeders will go to another stud. I dont think farmers are stupid enough to buy bulls they dont want. Crikey, its hard enough job when you have bulls that are good enough! I would love every bull mother I worked with to have had 10 calves in 10 years, 10% above herd average each time, 120 tonnes lifetime yield, super modern sire stack, living in a non preferential treatment herd, never had a foot up or mastitis, and three generations just like this. This cow would now 12 years old, so if I contract her, the cow will be 17 by the time the son gets proven...How modern will that be then? Shouldnt I have found this cow as a heifer?, isnt that a sire analysts responsibility? And, 10 calves from this outstanding cow? That means the breeder has only on average five heifer calves, is that enough from her? Id flush a cow like this in my herd, but wont that then effect her calving interval?... 10 calvings also means 5 bull calves, if 10 studs offered me contract, would I turn 5 away, or would I flush her more?....
|
|
12/7/2008, 12:50
|
|
fraser6
VG87
Global user
Registered: 09-2006
Posts: 103
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
To be honest i'd take a 99% reliable bull than just a "modern" bull anytime
|
|
12/7/2008, 15:41
|
|
Eryl Vet
EX90
Global user
Registered: 11-2006
Posts: 170
Karma: 2 (+2/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
In defence of sire analysts, the range and variation of young sires entering testing programmes has vastly improved in the last few years. This is primarily due to the increased focus on 'secondary' traits e.g. SCC, longevity, fertility etc. The Scandinavians were well ahead of the rest of us in selecting for these traits. A few years ago a large proportion of bull dams fell into the category of either having calved only once or being contracted as maidens. Most studs have now dramatically reduced the proportion of sons they take from maidens, and whilst the best daughters of emerging second crop bulls, such as Shottle and Goldwyn, are bound to have a sizeable number of sons tested, increasingly there are also sons taken from older, proven brood cows. A broad spectrum to suit all markets is the key to success and essential to keep genetic variation in the breed - hopefully we will not return to the out and out numbers scenario of a few years ago, when index bulls came in and out of fashion as sires of sons and bull mother dams every six months.
|
|
12/7/2008, 16:40
|
|
AndrewR
EX93
Global user
Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 412
Karma: 9 (+9/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
Fraser, define modern. I would say good udders, great legs and feet, moderate body traits, positive production with good components, calving ease, excellent longevity, low cell counts, low still births and improved fertility. Is this not what we want? Just because a bull is highly reliable, does this make him good? Unlikely
|
|
12/7/2008, 18:44
|
|
AndrewR
EX93
Global user
Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 412
Karma: 9 (+9/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
Quick note, type is also an index. As is every trait collected on cows. Index breeding can equally mean just breeding for type as production.
|
|
12/7/2008, 18:46
|
|
fraser6
VG87
Global user
Registered: 09-2006
Posts: 103
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
Andrew i was merely relating back to your statement
quote:
so if I contract her, the cow will be 17 by the time the son gets proven...How modern will that be then?
It doesn't make a bull great just because he's reliable,all i'm saying is i'd much rather know what i'm getting rather than a bull who's mother has done one lactation,but it's the newest hot thing.
I also do understand completely what you have said and the breed has to always keep moving on and improving,which is not an easy task.
Last edited by fraser6, 12/7/2008, 18:54
|
|
12/7/2008, 18:52
|
|
ryanns
EX90
Global user
Registered: 05-2004
Posts: 198
Karma: 0 (+1/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
Very true andrew I think a lot of breeders forget that, I think alot of breeders think production when they hear the word index but there are many different indexes that can lead to many different goals, your own selection criteria is a form of index.
and how can we all use 99% bulls all of the time they had to have a reliabilty lower than that at some point and the current 99%
bulls have surpased the ones of the past and will be surpassed themselves at some point in the future.
|
|
12/7/2008, 19:02
|
|
Charryman
Ex96
Global user
Registered: 12-2004
Location: Glos. UK
Posts: 953
Karma: 11 (+11/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
quote:
fraser6 wrote:
It doesn't make a bull great just because he's reliable,all i'm saying is i'd much rather know what i'm getting rather than a bull who's mother has done one lactation,but it's the newest hot thing.
Fraser6, did I read on another thread that you liked your Baxters?
According to HUKI, the dam has done one lactation and is VG85. He was/is also one of "newest hot things", is he not?
Baxter's Dam
I agree it's good to see a bull dam finishing several lactations, but the real high fliers will always be flushed and have extended lactations, at the least.
If however, a cow only has one or two lactations because her bag blew, then she, and all her sons should be shot, IMO. I suspect that we will rarely hear about those though, and constant flush programs will always be a convenient "cover story".
---
Anyone wants a good Charollais ram try www.lowerye.com
|
|
12/7/2008, 19:25
|
|
Campbeltowncowboy
VG87
Global user
Registered: 03-2007
Posts: 106
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
AndrewR :- If it were true that every time you contract a cow you risk you job, there would be lot of unemployed analysts as the success rate is very low.On a trip round ABS stud in Madison we were told how many bulls actually made it cant remember the exact figure but it was very low for the amount of bulls tested. I do think that maidens and milking heifers are flushed a few times to be able to get 3 or 4 different bulls to stay in or ahead in the race to find next "TOP" bull but they take a big risk if the bull mother has not proven herself,in your 20 years milking cows you must have seen some that develop slowly and turn into great mature cows(the kind I and many others would like) and many that are too mature too young.
|
|
12/7/2008, 21:28
|
|
foxleigh
Ex97
True blue dinky-di maverick
Global user
Registered: 06-2003
Location: southern,oz
Posts: 1906
Karma: 18 (+18/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
most of the unproven bulls we choose because dam and grand dam have had multiple calvings and even if they dont come up with the numbers their daughters do manage to stay around.
And I'm sorry Andrew I just cant cut it when it comes to "MODERN" to me it is about the best mating to suit a cow for a particular reason.Which is why I bought embryos by chief mark ....making me the least modern on this forum.
|
|
12/7/2008, 22:38
|
|
fraser6
VG87
Global user
Registered: 09-2006
Posts: 103
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
yes we have used baxter,and starting to regret it.....
Out of the last 9 baxter calves we've had 8 have been bulls.
We got a good deal on him (less than 20quid/straw) So we thought he was worth a go.
|
|
12/7/2008, 22:40
|
|
bscott
GP82
Global user
Registered: 05-2007
Posts: 27
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
quote:
foxleigh wrote:
most of the unproven bulls we choose because dam and grand dam have had multiple calvings and even if they dont come up with the numbers their daughters do manage to stay around.
And I'm sorry Andrew I just cant cut it when it comes to "MODERN" to me it is about the best mating to suit a cow for a particular reason.Which is why I bought embryos by chief mark ....making me the least modern on this forum.
What about the breeeder of the Mark embryos? 
|
|
13/7/2008, 3:12
|
|
ryanns
EX90
Global user
Registered: 05-2004
Posts: 198
Karma: 0 (+1/-1)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
if you want a bull out of a cow with mulituple lactaions etc, then there are plenty of young stock bulls available out of older cows that the AI's aren't looking at.
I have one myself if your interested
|
|
13/7/2008, 12:27
|
|
rossymons
GP82
Global user
Registered: 07-2008
Posts: 22
Karma: 0 (+0/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Bull Dams
I have sympathy with the AI companies. They're all tripping over themselves to try and access the latest genetics - anything with Shottle, Goldwyn, Talent is attracting a lot of interest lately.
Simply choosing bull mothers from cows with multiple lactations, or excellants in their stacks would cancel out the achievements of Baler Twin, Laurie Sheik and Sharon - she was only VG88 when her sons were tested.
|
|
15/7/2008, 22:22
|
|
AndrewR
EX93
Global user
Registered: 08-2004
Posts: 412
Karma: 9 (+9/-0)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Bull Dams
I apologise for using the word modern. Fashion sells for sure, but not always for the right reasons. I guess what I meant to say was relevant, we listen to what the customer wants, try and plan for what he needs, and look at what he buys, and try and produce product for 7 years time. In 7 years, composite indexes will change, as preferences do, new traits will come in, base changes will occur, and your bull better work well on roughly 45+ traits, and better than what you already have or you wont sell a dose. Thats why its not quite so easy to graduate bulls.
|
|
16/7/2008, 17:35
|
|
click here to give a full reply or use the box below for a quick reply
Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b - Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 7/10/2008, 19:08
|
|
|
