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mckeague
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
A strange thing happened last weekend at our local show which brings this topic to light. Its a small show with only one milking cow class, all ages from second calver upwards. We were showing an 88 point 2nd calf Storm (looks like going 89, she was only a week calved when she went 88) and this happened to be the youngest cow in the class. She stood bottom of the line with the following above her:
1st - An 88 point 3rd calf Fatal, though she probably deserved the class win and looks like making EX.
2nd- An 85 point 3rd calf Leadmaster, lacking crease in the udder and whose udder is level with her hocks, though she has a tremendous frame
3rd - An 87 point Rich-Ro Mark Sam (i think) 3rd calver, a cow that is probably at her peak.
4th - An 84 point 3rd calf Chief Mark (though she will probably go 86 this time round) close teat placement on side and a little light of fore rib
5th - The aforementioned Storm, the youngest animal in the class poss making her look immature.
My point here is when i looked over all the cows after judging i wouldn't swap the Storm for any of the other cows. She is classified the highest for her age and i think it just goes to show that there is still a huge gulf between how an animal will classify and how she will perform in the showring.
Maybe the judge had a bad day........
Hopefully the Storm will be spared to fight another day, although she is a complete pig on the halter anybody got any tips on how to cure this????
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24/7/2003, 14:33
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mckeague
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Hopefully this rant hasn't made me sound bitter!!!!!!!
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24/7/2003, 14:35
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indiesviewgw
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
I don't see you as bitter at all! It seems like these kind of things go on all the time at small shows. Last year at a small local show, I showed an EX-90 3yr old, and she stood 3 out of three. The others would have been hard pressed to score VG-86. I'm not crying that I should have won, but I think these stories just go to show that classification doesn't mean much in the showring. Especailly at small shows.
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24/7/2003, 14:58
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mckeague
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
I feel better knowing that it happens elsewhere, it can be very demoralising to see a good animal stand down the line for no real explanation. both showing and classifying should be aiming towards the best animal with the best traits (i hope this makes sense, maybe someone else can explain this better) therefore they should follow each other closely, or has is showing still focused on animals being big and deep and the udder becoming a secondary trait???? This is worrying as far as im concerned, give me EX mammaries before EX Body any day of the week. Its like one well known irish judge said to my father a number of years ago - if in doubt go for the strength, there seems to be a lot of doubt at the smaller shows!!!!!!
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24/7/2003, 15:07
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Huwston
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Different ball game!
Showing and classifying are completely different. Remember Saucy Skychief, she was 90 points as a 3rd calver! It just when the halter is put on she has the ability to show herself off. :teethy
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24/7/2003, 15:45
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mckeague
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
I can't agree that they are completely different, of course showring style and ring presence come into play but your cow must still be functionally correct. By the way the Storm was Champion Heifer and Reserve Overall at the same show last year, she was also Champion of our Club calf show before that so she does look good on a halter!!!! (yes i am ***** off by what happened)
Last edited by MarkDay, 24/7/2003, 19:03
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24/7/2003, 16:18
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Will Richardson
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Sounds like the biggest cows are still beating the balanced more correct cows at shows .. will this ever end ??????? Either that or we have in the odd case '' stevie wonder'' judging or classifying the animals.Hopefully tho' the judge gave a complete set of reasons as to why he placed them in the order that he did.
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24/7/2003, 17:55
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indiesviewgw
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Not to take shots at anybody, but here in the US, the people who judge smaller shows where I've seen some crazy stuff happen usually are not top shelf material. Even the best judges can make mistakes, but some struggle more often than others. 2 years ago I saw a judge spend 25 minutes judging 4 fall calves and it was pretty much cut and dry to everybody but him.
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24/7/2003, 18:28
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alan a
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Classifiers also have bad days. I have seen lots of VG two year olds that shouldn't have been, and lots that didn't get what they deserve.
So much depends on when they are seen, stage of lactation etc, as well as how prepared the animal is and what they are compared against.
The best quote i ever heard from a classifier was as he arrived at a farm at about 3 pm. 'I've made 5 excellent cows today on 2 farms, and I'm definitely not making any more.' The breeder was very impressed with his attitude.
I also saw a member of the official judges panel placing 2 in calf heifers and getting them wrong.
Neither judges nor classifiers are perfect, but if they were if would take a lot of the fun of showing away.
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24/7/2003, 20:21
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mckeague
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
we are still waiting on a complete set of reasons that actually make sense, but yeah people can have an off day and those that feel hard done by can console themselves with this knowledge!!!
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25/7/2003, 8:57
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GIBSON
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
The big cows win because the true type cow is 60" or above with a weight of up to a tonne.Thats why these small weedy cows dont get a look at the red ribbon because they dont resemble the true type cow.The true type cow should be re done for the uk so the mojority has a chance.Would u say 52-55 inch cow weighing 550 kgs would be a good true type model for the uk.This sound like we are back with the freisians not holsteins.
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26/7/2003, 22:07
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Roy MacGregor
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Big cows should only win, if they are equal in every other aspect. The days of a big cow, with a questionable udder wining are all but over. Unfortunatly the heifer classes seem to be bigger is better. Some judges also are guilty of judgeing who is on the halter. Regardless if your cow is obviously, the best only a fool would put her where she does not belong.
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27/7/2003, 2:10
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foxleigh
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
we only show at one major show a year and I take our most correct animal that is in form and most represents our breeding ideal.
So far I have stood 9th twice, last and 2nd last.With both milkers and cows. However months later I have had people ring up to ask me how that good heifer you showed is going?So do they rember her because they liked her or because she stood last.
there is only one guy in the ring but ringside are hundreds of judges, all with diffeent opinions, breeding goals etc.
Under a canadian judge I stood 2nd last with our best young inmilk cow (VG87 2nd calver) and afterwards had several say I was unlucky because she was better in the udder than the 6 cows above her(20 in class). The difference was she was 2 inches shorter in stature!Obviously in canada taller cows regardless of overall type are more desired?
However the most frustrating thing about showing is that it is so far away from commercial reality.
To calve a heifer to holstein at 2yo like we do we need body condition, size and strength. i constantly stand last to heifers that are so frail/narrow/dairy (lacking body weight) that it is hard to imagine them being capable of cycling let alone calving .Rarely does one see these heifers again as older cows.These heifers belong to breeders who are constantly amazed that we put holstein ets into our heifers and rarely pull one.Infact we are one of the few breeders in our subbranch who dont use jersey at all.Why is showing so far from commercial reality?
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13/8/2003, 14:01
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simon powell
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
quote:
foxleigh wrote:
we only show at one major show a year and I take our most correct animal that is in form and most represents our breeding ideal.
So far I have stood 9th twice, last and 2nd last.With both milkers and cows. However months later I have had people ring up to ask me how that good heifer you showed is going?So do they rember her because they liked her or because she stood last.
there is only one guy in the ring but ringside are hundreds of judges, all with diffeent opinions, breeding goals etc.
I don't wish to be patronising, but I just have to say that I love your attitude to showing!!!! WELL DONE YOU!!!!
Last edited by simon powell, 16/8/2003, 0:27
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16/8/2003, 0:22
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indiesviewgw
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
quote:
foxleigh wrote:
there is only one guy in the ring but ringside are hundreds of judges, all with diffeent opinions, breeding goals etc.
I would rather have the type of animal that the judge is looking for because odds are at the big shows, most ringsiders will be looking for the same thing the judge is. Maybe I'm all wrong here. What say you?
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20/8/2003, 4:52
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foxleigh
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
then there must be shows you dont go to!
Our cow stood 9th under hank van excel who liked her as the complete cow and a year later last under stanhope/wedgewood because she was 2 inches too short.(to stand in the top 10 at dairy week is the equivilent to the top 10 at madison because only the best come from all around oz)
Air under bellies does not make for a more profitible cow!!We have sold all this cows bulls to commercial farmers who love her.(gets back to the 100s of ringside judges knowing what they like)
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20/8/2003, 23:31
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Big Bird
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Judges are only human, and not all humans agree all of the time.
Sometimes the cow that finishes lower down but is appreciated by the crowd can be remebered favourably.
Just been to a relatively small show where the talk in the lines afterwards was why did a heifer finish 3rd in her class when many thought she should have won it, including many of the competitors.
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23/8/2003, 15:30
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JeffNYRC
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
This is a very old thread, but what the hey?
I asked classifiers, just about every one of them. "Do you judge?". Each one answers with no. I ask 'Why?' They say "If I score an animal 85, and she places over an animal I score 88, it wouldn't look good for me. This past year I placed with my VG85 Advent over a VG87 Advent (someone looked at her the other day when making selections, said she should go 86-87 with an 88mam). Of course you have the instances where two 85's place 5 placings from each other, then when they score you can see why.
The judge is comparing with other animals, the classifier is scoring that individual and is not scoring her based on her herd mates. The animal that places 1st *Looks* better than the one in 2nd, etc etc. So it makes sence.
Jeff
Last edited by JeffNYRC, 21/6/2008, 20:21
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"You can't lose if you don't expect to win." - My show philosophy.
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21/6/2008, 20:20
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foxleigh
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
quote:
JeffNYRC wrote:
The judge is comparing with other animals, the classifier is scoring that individual and is not scoring her based on her herd mates. The animal that places 1st *Looks* better than the one in 2nd, etc etc. So it makes sence.
Jeff
I recently attended the first day of our states judging school(all I could get to because of babysitter/relief milker issues).
First we had the classifier run us thru parts of a cow and desired traits (ideal pin width/heigth/thrul placement etc)along with discussion of which is worse and the breakdown of points on catagorys.
then we did the first class - 3 3yo that were the refiner type and a raider.raider last.when the mature class came along 13yo raider was clear winner and thats when the wheels came off some of the attendees....great discussion on why one was last and one was first when both were the same type.The thing was the overjudges kept saying "go with your gut"and use your reasons to back up.Placing 3/4 was also fun with lots of discusion on if legs and feet of one with a nice udder were less functional that the worse udder of the better legged cow.
4 of the 5 who completed the course did get on the provisional panel
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21/6/2008, 22:39
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FiringOnAllFour
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
I have never read this thread originally, so I found it a good read.
I have to totally agree with Foxleigh. I'm not in the least bit bothered if anyone else likes my cows or not. The only person she has to please is me. No one understands a cow better than the man or woman who works with her every day. So why give a man the opportunity to judge her on the moment, when he can't possibly have all the information he needs to form a balanced opinion? Its like being asked to judge a person's character, and all the troubles and illnesses they have had in their life (or are likely to develop), and all the joys etc from a photosnap. Absolutely daft if you ask me.
Also, cowtalk has taught us that every farmer wants something slightly different, sometimes radically different from his cows. So, on what basis is a man to judge a ring of cattle? For what purposes are the cows required to excel at?
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22/6/2008, 12:12
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redrobin
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Couldn't agree more FOAF, think you've got it spot on there!
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22/6/2008, 12:36
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Buckeye
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Placings at a show are one day's efforts. Classifications can be very different. Animals get seen with all amounts of milk in their udders, some are clipped, some cows are just fresh, some are dry. Placings at a show are subjective to a judges opinions. Never ever put too much importance on show results. Focus on the cows, not the results in the show ring. Some of the clowns judging these shows need to be shown the door.
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22/6/2008, 17:15
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JEB12
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
In all fairness to some of the judges, there also can be a two or three point difference on the same animal from some of the real conservative classifiers to some of the eaiser ones.
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22/6/2008, 18:41
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Buckeye
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
quote:
JEB12 wrote:
In all fairness to some of the judges, there also can be a two or three point difference on the same animal from some of the real conservative classifiers to some of the eaiser ones.
That certainly can be true.
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22/6/2008, 18:58
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debutante
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
Just coming back from a good regional show at Maxville , ont , Canada and for the second consecutive year it`s a 2 yo that won the Grand Champion beating the older cows. The reserve was a 66 Inches cows but The 2 yo Goldwyn was just so good so representative of the true type cow that Barclay Phoenix did not have the choice of putting her Grand.That Goldwyn is a 87 pts right now but she is more likely to be a 88-89 when she see the judge again.
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22/6/2008, 19:30
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mootoyou
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
What was it? (The Goldwyn that won?)
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22/6/2008, 20:32
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debutante
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Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
The Goldwyn was Geno Goldwyn Lili from a 90 pts Inquirer , then a 85 pts Mason , 86 pts Starbuck , just a ok family down here in Quebec.
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23/6/2008, 1:21
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Mayjay
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
I'd like to see all cows classified everytime they have a calf. Naturally, their highest score stands as the official score. During a cows life, with each consecutive score, you would end up with a graph, similar to a lactation curve. Early to ripen, early to rot seems to be the norm for a lot of breeders, this method would give the late bloomers a kick at the cat. I suppose an argument would be, why promote yesterdays genetics.
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23/6/2008, 5:26
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Charryman
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Re: Showing Vs Classification!!!!!!
quote:
Mayjay wrote:
I'd like to see all cows classified everytime they have a calf. Naturally, their highest score stands as the official score. During a cows life, with each consecutive score, you would end up with a graph, similar to a lactation curve. Early to ripen, early to rot seems to be the norm for a lot of breeders, this method would give the late bloomers a kick at the cat. I suppose an argument would be, why promote yesterdays genetics.
Another arguement would be "who's going to pay for it?". We milk 300 pedigree cows, are you suggesting that we should classify 300 cows each year? Get real.
I agree that, in an ideal utopian world, it would be handy to see a graph showing that most Mascots and Bellwoods crash & burn after 2-3 calves ...... along with Storms, Raiders, Progress, Mason, Omans(?)..... 
Last edited by Charryman, 23/6/2008, 23:53
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Anyone wants a good Charollais ram try www.lowerye.com
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23/6/2008, 23:52
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