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KillerBananas
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Re: MTC demo

Thanks Creamstrat, you're a damn fine player emoticon

Now, the MTC.... To me it sounds like a increase in volume and a little more clarity. Dawk is right when he describe the effect as subtle, 'cause it is very subtle indeed. But, important, the effect may be subtle, but it also depends what you have later in your signal chain. The MTC in combination with the BSM pedal, and the Engl, sounded very, very good. You could also hear that the amp (and maybe BSM) added to the MTC effect (or maybe the other way around).

Well, I haven't got a MTC, but I have a RBTC. All I can say is that, from your soundclips, the MTC and RBTC are two different things. They don't sound much alike at all, and they are certainly not copies.

I guess that we can conclude that they both works, differently, and both are good devices to try and obtain that "Blackmore mojo".

---
Marshall 1987X amp
Marshall 1960AX cab
RBTB
Fender Stratocaster '72 ri, CiJ, YellowWhite, "Full Blackmore Scallop", RBTC
Fender Telecaster Road Worn, Blonde, 2008, RBTC
Gibson Les Paul Standard, "Bettsie", Custom Brockburst, 2008

6/10/2009, 5:44

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Creamstrat
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Re: MTC demo

There is definately more than a volume change here. As I said the DI sound of the guitar is so 'anaemic' and bland that differences in tone ere less obovious, but by the time you use a proper guitar rig those small differences are amplified and become more significant. Almost like a coil tap switch. That would appear as just a volume change but the change in tone when using proper equipment at gig volume is significant. In fact in normal use the MTC definately has a similar impact as a coil tap.

I actually have had to adjust the normal tone settings on my ampy to compensate for the MTC because it does add presence. There is definately a more metallic tone which is very audible in the other clip.

Hopefully you can hear that Im well enough aquainted with the guitar to credit me with being able to detect more than just a volume change!

Last edited by Creamstrat, 6/10/2009, 7:18

6/10/2009, 7:14

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Rezi
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Re: MTC demo

quote:
Creamstrat wrote:

As I said the DI sound of the guitar is so 'anaemic' and bland that differences in tone ere less obovious, but by the time you use a proper guitar rig those small differences are amplified and become more significant.

Yeah. If something dominates you're sound when playing through a practice amp or headphones it most likely makes you sick when played through a bigger amp and at higher volumes.

6/10/2009, 7:22

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KillerBananas
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Re: MTC demo

quote:
Creamstrat wrote:

Hopefully you can hear that Im well enough aquainted with the guitar to credit me with being able to detect more than just a volume change!

Yes, offcourse emoticon

What I ment was when you use the MTC within your chain it will be much more detectable than when you use it like you did in your last clip, even if it is offcourse detecable in that clip as well.

You have a great set up and sound!

6/10/2009, 8:31

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mijfenders
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Re: MTC demo

Interesting, I tend to take the view that if the "tone" is not in the guitar signal to start with, then the other gear just won't amplify it becuase it's not there anyway. In this clip, like the one I did, the difference with or without the MTC is frankly very marginal. Thats why there is very little being said by certain people about these clips, not unsurprisingly.

Another interesting thing to note, and frankly this is why I asked the questions about the tone control, is that according to Dawk the MTC actually does nothing until the tone is set down to about 2. This is the red/black wire from the MTC. We have already established that the 2 white wires are the treble-bleed bit of the MTC, which only works if the volume is down, same as any treble-bleed. So here's the reference to this on his site Dawk says the MTC only works with Tone on 2 In the opening statment Dawk tells us how the MTC will work. Notably he didn't tell me nor his other users this relatively vital piece of information at the time of purchase or subsequently and it only came up when fairly recently!!
"DAWK SAYS:
MAYBE HE DOES'NT KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO TURN THE TONE CONTROL DOWN BELOW (2) TO GET ''RITCHIE'S'' EFFECT...
The HE incidentially is of course me, Dawk is preaching to his fan-boys, that time, about how I don't know how to work the MTC! He never tells anyone this is what they need to do with theMTC to get it to work and the "instructions" you get with the MTC don't tell you this either. They tell you how to wire a standard 3 pickup/5way switch guitar, which is you are trying to capture the "Blackmore sound" is almost certianly not the way your guitar is setup. It's a total joke!

As it happens I know that that the only time my own MTC ever did anything that was notably different, from nothing, was when the Tone was turned down to about 2. However what it did was no different from what any guitar capacitor would do at that setting. "RITCHIE'S EFFECT" it certianly wasn't.

When people say the MTC is only on this pickup or that pickup they mean the red/black wires "tone capacitor" bit. We have already established that the 2 white wires only work when the volume is turned down and by Dawks volition we also know that the red/black(Tone) wires only work when the tone is down at 2. So this clearly begs the question WTF is all the rubbish written, and agreed with by Dawk, that people have it just on their output jack, or they claim it's "permanently on"!! Completely mental! They write it and he just agrees it works that way. How ? if the tone needs to be down at 2, It's complete nonsense, it simply wouldn't work!

I've puzzled over both the MTC clips CreamStrat has produced here, just as I did with those MTC clips by Stratman. Nice playing on all clips by both and basically a nice "Blackmore Style" sound from both. This was why I asked if they would do a no amp/no effect version to isolate the MTC outwith the other gear. What puzzled me was that these clips were played with the TONE controls on full, certianly CreamStrats first one was. I asked this question, to see what the answer would be, I already knew the answer. It wasn't a trick question as such, but it showed me that CreamStrat was doing exactly what I did originally when I got the MTC. Like you I wanted to beleive it was really making a difference, I was convinced I could hear it, I had it all, the hat, the T-shirt, the lot and I had the same effect as the great Mr Blackmore. Only later I realised the f*cking MTC was doing basically virtually nothing, if not absolutely nothing at all, because it basically wasn't in my signal chain starting off right from the guitar itself, where the MTC ws supposed to make a radical change to my tone.

So basically guys, I really enjoyed the clips and your playing whch was great, but you are just NOT hearing the MTC, because it's basically not there to be heard, as your own clips prove. What is there, is a large $325/$350 helping of serious "star-dust", which works on your desire for it to work for you. You have effectively been mugged off because of your desire to sound more like Blackmore, once in that mode it's an easy one to work. Sorry guys!

Reflect on how you operated your MTC and on what Dawk has said about how it should work and you'll see, regretably what I saying is all unfortunatley quite correct. This is the "Emporers Clothes" story all over again.

Also I reflected on the nervous twitch Ritchie exhibts when playing where he constantly runs over the controls on his guitar turning the controls up. Check ANY video clip of BLackmore and you will see him do it incessantly. He turns the controls right up all the time, the volume as well, in full solos, So this combined with what Dawk has said about the way the MTC apparently works made me wonder WTF is really going on here!

YOU will be pleased to hear that :-

OVerall I think the MTC/RBTC thing has probably now really been done to death.

I've produced clips that very effectively showed the MTC made virtually no difference to my sound with it either on or off. These are all there in public on YOutube for all to hear. These were simply rubbished by the assembled fan-boys, amusingly enough most of them don't actually own an MTC, but, of course, are still qualified to comment. They claimed I had not used the MTC in the clips and I'd made it sound bad on purpose for commercial gain. All complete nonsense, I demonstrated ONLY what the MTC did to the signal from my guitar. I would have been very happy if the MTC I bought had worked and produced brilliant results for me, but it didn't happen. I wondered if mine was defective, but CreamStrats does the very same, so unless they are both broken, which they are not................the rest is history.

Now thanks to the wholly independent CreamStrat and Stratman70, who are not me, nor in any way connected to me, you have independently produced clips which demonstrate, in the case of CreamStrats Clean Clip, virtually exactly the same thing, namely a barely noticable difference, beyond a minor volume increase in the signal between the MTC on or off. STratman said it was subtle but really he meant inaudible really. Using a POD to test the MTC won't really work, I'm sure the RBTC would necessarily shine with a POD either, so again whatever you are hearing the MTC it's not, you other equipment it definately is!

So now ALL the doubters out there and the fan-boys alike have heard the MTC in the raw, with their own ears. I'm sure they will find some reasonable excuse for it and a reason for why actually it is making a radical alteration to their sound, BUT it simply isn't. It IS doing what you hear in the CreamStrat Clean Clip, just like it did in mine. Ears of a Dog required, claims it works rejected, claims CreamStrat made it sound bad on purpose, rejected as well, so forget that one. CreamStrat is stil in the honeymoon period with hsi MTC, but there a divorce coming just around the next bend!

Over the period this debate has run I've been told I have copied the MTC, stolen the MTC design, X-rayed the MTC and on and on and on and I've had more defamatory comments made about my business and myself on the strength of these ludricious claims. Put VERY SIMPLY it must be clear that I DON'T think the MTC does ANYTHING much, so why would I want to copy a device that I think does NOTHING? Think about it, if you can! The logical conclusion is NOT that I copied the MTC, that is the LEAST likely possibility. I've also been told the RBTC doesn't work, depsite being a copy of the MTC, it's been claimed it's inferior, it screws up the volume pot, it does nothing, it doesn;t do what it claims, it's inferior to the MTC. Steve Renton has posted the most amazing heap of defamatory drivel right from the start fo the RBTC being available and even recently told a customer the RBTC was "inferior", yet he has emailed asking to buy them to fit in guitars for his customers! A complete two faced imbecile! The RBTC has no "star" connections to rely on it simply has to work on it's own merits end of. It does this well.

Is an RBTC audible, absolutely. Can you tell if it's switched on or off, too bl**dy right you can,ear of a dog absolutely not required, even a partly deaf person would hear the difference, even without amps or effects. The RBTC does noticabley alter the signal coming from the guitar, so you KNOW it there.

Where are the soundclips from the MTC that have been prodcued by Dawk? There are none. He will say listen to Blackmore to hear it. There is no way you could tell what you are hearing if you jsut "listen to Blackmore", so how come Dawk and Jerry have failed to produce ANY clips of their own to demo the MTC ? It's because it's so subtle they know you might not hear it, plus it would be a statement of what the prodcut really does and it would also give you a reference point to dispute what your purchase is/isn't doing. That would be bad news, as both my original clean clip and now the creamstart clean clip demonstrates.

If you bought an MTC and beleive it really radically altered your sound that's great, I'm very pleased for you. The independent evidence you can hear with your own ears here, tells you it does not make a material, in fact barely even a minor, alteration to our signal. These topics and clips can't fail to have made you aware and help you realise that if the effect the MTC offers can't be heard from your raw guitar signal, it means it simply isn't there, and no amount of amplication or effects, after your guitar will make it appear. No matter how hard you want to beleive, it's just like Ritchies sound, it's really there, it just isn't.

Everyone who owns an MTC should do the CreamStart Test and then ask Dawk to explain why so little is actually happening to their signal.

7/10/2009, 1:01

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mijfenders
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Re: MTC demo

Finally: There really is no point for me to futher discuss the MTC because I've already established from my own work that it does very very very little and thanks to CreamStrat I've now had this basically verified independently and a similar result has been shown and heard.

Incidentially this independent verification was what some people here had asked for. Well by default, you've now had it and I know it hasn't yielded the result you expected, hence the general silence about it. If the MTC as demonstrated in the CreamStrat Clean Clip had shown a huge difference between on and off all the fan-boys woul dhave been crowing about how well it worked and how great it is. The clip did NOT reveal a great difference at all, if any, so there's nothing to crow about.

Dawk-fan-boys might note I'm avoiding the temptation to crow about how really poorly the MTC performed in this very basic test. Really I'm not interested in that, I've established to my total and utter satisfaction that the MTC performed EXACTLY as I expected and knew it would and have written time and again it would perform, ie barely at all, if at all. So it's over now.

So now we're all done on the MTC and
personally I'm not for wasting any more effort on this debate, the MTC is all done.

7/10/2009, 1:08

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Rezi
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Re: MTC demo

A great post MIJF, the final word should always come from the marketing department! emoticon

7/10/2009, 7:10

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Creamstrat
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Re: MTC demo

You have totally ignored everything that I have said. In particular that recording the DI sound makes the tone anaemic so differnces are artificially marginal. Even then you can tell that the sound is brighter when the volume is increased slightly. You can clearly here the difference when played thru a proper guitar amp that emphasis the guitars natural tones. I play with this thing all the time so to br told that I am not hearing a difference is a clearly insulting. I was well aware of all the 'stardust' issues so approached this with a fully informed cynical mind, needing to be convinced myself.

I thought that these tests had done enough to prove it did work frankly. But it seems Im now going to have to go to the effort of recording some clips with:

the amp only, clean
the amp only, with gain

So this debate is not over. I have to go to work now, but I will start work on these clips when I get back.

In terms of the tone setting. I prefer the sound with it full up to as I quite like the bright sound on the neck pickup especially as long as I have adjusted the amp to cope with it.

7/10/2009, 7:33

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Stratman70
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Re: MTC demo

quote:
mijfenders wrote:

STratman said it was subtle but really he meant inaudible really. Using a POD to test the MTC won't really work, I'm sure the RBTC would necessarily shine with a POD either, so again whatever you are hearing the MTC it's not, you other equipment it definately is!

No, mijfenders...
I never SAID and also never MEANT that the MTC is inaudible! Don't twist my words please, don´t speak for me. I said before that both devices (MTC and RBTC) do work, both in their own way.
I've ordered the FLS pick ups. As soon as I got them, I'll do the test, just as you asked me: no POD or whatever, just straight into the recording device. I also will do a test with a clean guitar straight into my ENGL Thunder combo, playing one piece three times:
- without any device, just stock Strat circuit with FLS Gold neck pick up.
- with the MTC - FLS Gold neck pick ups.
- with the RBTC - FLS Gold neck pick ups.
All on volume at 2.

quote:

Everyone who owns an MTC should do the CreamStart Test and then ask Dawk to explain why so little is actually happening to their signal.

The clips of Creamstrat are rally good examples. I dont'know what you are searching for, but I can hear a clear difference between MTC on and off by those clips. And when he talks about the 'zing' tone, I immediatly recognise what he means, listening to the sound of my own guitar at low volume (2).

The only thing that bothers me about the MTC is the high price. It´s too much for such a subtle change in the tone imo. That´s the only thing I agree with people who complain about the MTC. But again for me, It works, very subtle, but the tone is getting clearer at 2, that ´zing´ tone as Creastrat called it, but I´ll come back to this later as soon as when I got these pick ups have installed and do my own test.

Last edited by Stratman70, 7/10/2009, 8:57

---
"I believe in God, Blackmore & Stratocasters" - Stratman70

7/10/2009, 8:49

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KillerBananas
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Re: MTC demo

Creamstrat, to me it sounds like the MTC is a treblebleed, but remember- that's just my opinion. I beleive you can get (at least about) the same effect from a treblebleed, except the increase in voloume maybe!?

I hope mijfenders don't mind me posting this. It's just a little something taken from a couple of mails I got from him where he told me of his experience with the MTC, and what he and his tech did and did not do after buying it from Dawk.

"The effect, such as it is, is the same effect ANY treble bleed would give your guitar for about £ 1.50. He calls it presence, but it’s not.

What I find pretty amusing all round is that these guys buy the MTC and then persuade themselves it really works and then want to argue with me about it. That’s fine but they forget that before concluding that the MTC does as little as it does I’ve had a tech testing it, analysing the wave forms, using a spectrum analyser on the wave forms and generally researching my claim that it does virtually nothing. I didn’t make it up and now that their own ears hear it, they still want to claim it has some magical properties!!"

"I knew before it all started that the MTC did bugger all, my tech found that out pretty quick, doing things like Creamstrat has done but then using technology to analyse the results!

On that basis we established there was nothing really worth copying and that is the gods honest truth. I wanted the type of thing you hear in SUIA live shows when Ritchie played the solos in maybe “Hunting Humans” or “Black Masquerade”, that really fantastic sound. That was what the “sound design” for the RBTC was all about, those were the type of clips I played my tech and that was where we were coming from, NOT from how do we steal something that basically doesn’t work!! **** that would be nuts for sure. The only reason the MTC sell is because people think it is associated with Blackmore. If you took that away and tried to sell a copy of it, the thing wouldn’t last 5 minutes, because all the customers would say “I can’t hear this thing doing anything, I want a refund, you ripped me off” etc ."

Basicly, the "effect" from the MTC has been analyzed properly in every way, and the conclusion....well, it's up to you guys and your ears to judge. Anyway, I suggest someone, with interest and spare time, try out a treblebleed to compare with the MTC to see if they act the same way. A treblebleed will at least save you a lot of money emoticon

Remember:

DAWK SAYS:

MAYBE HE DOES'NT KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO TURN THE TONE CONTROL
DOWN BELOW (2) TO GET ''RITCHIE'S'' EFFECT...

Guys, tone control. Not volume, but tone control. If the MTC only work if you turn down your tone control below two, why do Ritchie play with the tone controls full up?

Last edited by KillerBananas, 7/10/2009, 9:28

7/10/2009, 9:20

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