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richardecolson
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
No problem...
Thanks,
Richard
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Richard Colson
Canadian Director FORS
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High River, AB Canada
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8/26/2009, 9:08 am
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Bill Sampson
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
quote:
Socorro wrote:
I've got an Ember Husband OR for you Richard but it has a crest.You don't mind do ya?
Kelly, how can you call them Husband OR's, when you said they were half Husband and half Fehrholz ????
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Bill S.
www.ameronlofts.com
whsampson@sbcglobal.net
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8/26/2009, 6:02 pm
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Socorro
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
Hey Bill,
I was told by Bob Rapp when he sent me the parents to these young I have now that they were Husband strain with a little bit of Ferholtz in them.I never said they were 1/2 n 1/2 at any time I guess I just got tired of calling them Husbands with a little Ferholtz in 'em,I mean how many generations after having Ferholtz crossed into them,do they go back to being called pretty much pure Husband anyhow?
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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8/26/2009, 10:00 pm
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Bill Sampson
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
Hey Kelly,
(genetically speaking, yes here we go again.:roll.eyes: ) Once a cross between two (‘pure’) strains has taken place. It takes ten, or even twelve matings back to one or the other strains, before they can be considered as that strain again. And even then, they can easily be carrying a recessive gene, that won’t come to the surface (a dominant gene) for the eye to see, for decades of breeding.
In your instance of a crest. As I understand it, you have a hen and a cоck, both ‘mostly’ Husband w/ “a little Fehrholz” mixed in.
(In genetics, there’s no such thing as ‘a little’. ‘At best’, it is spoken of in terms of percentages. So you could have a bird that is 75% Husband and 25% Fehrholz. Meaning three grandparents were Husband and one grandparent was Fehrholz.)
It takes to genes of the same type (called ‘like genes’). To produce a dominant gene (something you can see). Therefore you can have two dominant genes = a dominant factor, two recessive genes = a dominant factor, ‘OR’ you can have a dominant gene and a recessive gene = a recessive gene/ factor. Offspring receive one gene from EACH parent to make a living form. Again therefore, you have a baby which carries dominant genes (those you can see), but also carries recessive genes (those you can not see). So you can have generations of birds carrying a recessive gene (you can’t see), until it makes a match w/ another recessive, and turns into a dominant gene and pops to the surface so you can see it.
So hypothetically speaking, you could have two chicks to a round and four rounds = eight chicks. And have NO crests !! But the fifth round of two chicks you could have one chick w/ NO crest and one chick w/ A CREST… 
Which tells you.., that in all likelihood.., ‘ALL the other nine chicks’ are carrying the recessive gene for a crest. OR you could have this situation in reverse and still have the same outcome. Recessive genes are sly little buggers, just lying in wait for another like gene (which = a match, which = a dominant) to pop to the surface, to say HI THERE we’re back !!
:ROFL:
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Bill S.
www.ameronlofts.com
whsampson@sbcglobal.net
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8/27/2009, 7:00 am
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Socorro
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
OK,thanks for that.I don't know what % of Ferholtz is in my birds.We'd have to ask Bob that question.Only one person has gotten ORs from me and I was as honest as I could be about their genetic background.Rollers are kind of like a box of chocolates,eh.You never know what you have till you fly 'em out for a good amount of time.
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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8/27/2009, 9:48 pm
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rapp
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
Where I bought some of my FOR's the guy told me that they came from one of our club members and I got a hold of him and he confirmed that they were Husband and a little Ferholtz and that he had sold them to the him. My other birds I bought from a California guy that bought them from Alan and they were Husbands they have circus bands on them. Thats all I know about the birds.
I have put out maybe 20+ birds to locals and club members and have had no one ask me about crest but Kelly. So I am in the dark too. 
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Bob Rapp Penn Valley Ca.
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8/27/2009, 10:23 pm
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Socorro
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
These crests are coming from a father/daughter mating and they have produced their LAST round of which one was physically deficient(head always tilted towards the ceiling).Both young from the last round died for no apparent reason.NOT a good pairing,by any means.I won't be doing any more inbreeding with these birds.I have been told by one of my OR buddies NOT to inbreed with ORs :roller:
Last edited by Socorro, 8/28/2009, 6:22 am
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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8/28/2009, 6:21 am
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windjammer loft
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
Hey Kel... Don't hold me to this but... I thought I read somewhere in here that the Husbands were closely inbred... I might be
wrong though... Iam not making this statement
to ruffle anyones feathers,either...
Last edited by windjammer loft, 8/28/2009, 8:45 am
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Fly High and Roll On
Paul
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8/28/2009, 8:40 am
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Bill Sampson
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
None of this info surprises me, in fact it is what I expected. I have found (so far) the only pigeon breeders in this country that keep pedigrees, are the Homing Pigeon racers. And they are VERY extensive ones at that…
Had the proper pedigrees been kept (and given) on all the above birds, you both (Kelly and Bob) would have known just where and which bird in the ancestry was a Husband & or Fehrholz, or any other strain. Much less any other info as to their flying abilities, as well as (and this is a given) the Reg. No’s on each cоck and hen.
Pedigrees should be AT LEAST four generations and therefore will show the ancestry all the way back to the Grt., Grt grand parents. I have bought Racers, that had eight generation pedigrees. Showing, not only the numbers of the past parents, but the bloodlines and counties they came from. The races some had flown in and the mileage, as well as their placing in the races and even the colors of each bird.
Of course pedigrees.., like the given word, are only as good as the person(s) who keep them. And a buyer is always taking the word of the seller, that he keeps accurate pedigrees, so he can then add to the info. Now days it is so very simple to keep accurate pedigrees, as we now have pedigree programs to keep all the info. Press a button… and you print out a pedigree for your buyer. Press a button… and up come the pedigree of any bird in your loft.
Not like the old days, when stacks of note books had to be kept and EVERYTHING was hand written. To sell an animal, you had to spend at least ½ an hr writing out the pedigree for each one sold.
For my loft, I’ve had to start from scratch. The sellers tell me “oh yes, I keep pedigrees on all my birds”. After I buy the bird(s), the seller won’t send me their pedigrees. In dogs, cats and many other animals…, no pedigree, NO SALE!! Of course there’s a big difference between $10 and $800.
INBREEDING. Now here’s another very misunderstood part of breeding. If and when it is used, it should NOT be done indiscriminately and w/o good reason. Although it is done in pigeons all the time, to start a new loft or a newly acquired breed. One buys one pr. (to save money/ the seller only has the one pr.), breeds them and then has nothing else to breed the offspring to, but back to their parent. And that’s OK.., usually! And your assuming the original parents are not closely related. But then, w/o a pedigree, who knows !! You can ask the seller and he’ll say sure go ahead, they’re not very close. And in he mind he’s saying to himself. “Gee.., I don’t really remember now, what that combination was, or who those birds are out of…. Oh well…, no harm done, they’re just birds”…. (If you had their pedigree and read it.., you’d know.)
Inbreeding has been the blame for many a sin/ problem in animals. When in actual fact, all inbreeding does…, is help bring the GOOD & the BAD genes up to the surface (dominant genes), so you can see what the parents are carrying. Kelly, that’s probably why you got your crest(s). The cоck (the father) was hiding the recessive gene for the crest. Past that recessive gene on the his offspring (a hen chick). So when you mated her back to her sire, by being so closely related, the two recessive genes for a crest made a match. That match turned into a dominant gene and presto, the offspring shows you a crest. And as I said above, if the other chick isn’t showing a crest, you can be sure it is a carrier for that recessive crest gene. But the chances are, by being from an inbred mating, he doesn’t. To be sure…, breed the brother X sister (if you got a cоck out of that breeding). If no crests show up in the offspring, then that cоck bird IS NOT carrying a recessive for a crest and you won’t have to worry about him in future breedings. Because, by inbreeding, you have removed that crest gene from that young cоck. As for the babies w/ the tilted heads and dying. That sounds like the twisted head syndrome of cancer. And the babies didn’t dye from the inbreeding, they died because the parents didn’t/ couldn’t feed them, because of the head problem. As we all know, chicks have to be able to beg and rub their parents beaks, to stimulate the feeding process. If the chick just sit there, the parents aren’t going to do any feeding.
So…, enough of this, I’m sure your all tired of my rambling on.. :applause:
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Bill S.
www.ameronlofts.com
whsampson@sbcglobal.net
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8/28/2009, 5:04 pm
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Socorro
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Re: Check out these Husband Tuffies
No,at least I'm not tired of any of your comments.You're a good teacher and thank-you for your patience.
I agree with what you say and I for one should definately keep better records of my birds,trouble is I'm one helluva procrastinator and let things go to memory which ain't the best these days.I do write stuff down but not nearly enough and do tend to go on luck somewhat(good thing I'm a lucky guy).Sometimes I feel the biggest manager in my breeding program is the GD falcon and have to go with what is leftover.They gotta be the best anyways,eh?The ones leftover after all the attacks.
When you say twisted head syndrom of"cancer",do you mean "canker" in the throat?I'm not 100% sure,but don't think canker is the problem.
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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8/28/2009, 10:45 pm
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