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Gaditano
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Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
I would say the top picture is a mottle and the bottom pic is of a light Sprinkle, which would be a Black Almond mottle
Is it the same as this one?
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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7/19/2008, 4:15 pm
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Gaditano
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
BTW.. that first picture is the way I like my mottling
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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7/19/2008, 4:16 pm
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rollerdoneks
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
Sippi the first picture is a Tiger (Mottle) Grizzle(note the dark tail)
The second picture looks like a Flash Grizzle tail,& most likly also Tiger Grizzle. I don't see any undergrizzle, but who knows.
Alan's bird is Tiger Grizzle and maybe Ug.
The mimic pied bird is Ug, I don't see the Tiger Grizzle in it.
With the combination of the three grizzles and Almond we have a unlimited variation of the Grizzle Factor. If you read the Standard we don't have the pied white factor in the Flying Oriental Roller. Unless some new imports comes into this country that have it.
The only way we know for sure on what color factor we have is to mate back to Wild Type (Blue Bar) and document the offsprings, and that's easier said then done.
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Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
rollerdoneks@skybeam.com
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7/22/2008, 11:26 am
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sippi3
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
Dennis doesnt the blue bar (wild type) also have to have no modifiers?
Sippi
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sippi
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7/22/2008, 12:22 pm
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rollerdoneks
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
Sippi,
Yes you are correct. Just wild type and nothing else.
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Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
rollerdoneks@skybeam.com
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7/23/2008, 1:32 pm
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bluebar
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
quote:
sippi3 wrote:
Somebody get my mind straight. The Fehrholt birds have no pied in them.
Tiger grizzle is grizzle or pied?
Mottle is pied?
If mottle is pied then the tiger birds have to be grizzle?
Sippi
Okay - it's actually easy. The answer is yes and no. Dennis' answer is great.
Tiger grizzle is an allele of (classical) grizzle. An allele is alternative at the same place on the chromosome. So the spot where wild-type mutated to grizzle can have a few things in that slot. One is (classic) grizzle, the other is Tiger grizzle. Tiger is dominant to grizzle. So if you have a bird that carries grizzle and Tiger, you should get a mottle (Tiger is one of the factors that leads to mottling)
Then we have the Flash Grizzle and undergrizzle and I'm betting that we're going to find a few more as we continue to study the birds.
The only time I've ever seen pied in Orientals was in birds that were crossed (everyone acknowledged that) to Birminghams, when Jim Greene tried to create Baldheads, etc. The birds I saw usually had only a few white flights etc. They're pretty well defunct now from what I understand.
The birds I had out of the Fernholtz X Husband line sometimes looked to be classic grizzle in nest plumage but then molted out to mottles (Tiger grizzles) in adult plumage.
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7/23/2008, 11:25 pm
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sippi3
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
So more than likely we will not encounter classic grizzle since Tiger is dominant classic? All my birds are tiger. Except the squeak I posted.
sippi
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sippi
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7/24/2008, 5:30 am
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sharpshooters
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
quote:
bluebar wrote:
quote:
sippi3 wrote:
Somebody get my mind straight. The Fehrholt birds have no pied in them.
Tiger grizzle is grizzle or pied?
Mottle is pied?
If mottle is pied then the tiger birds have to be grizzle?
Sippi
Okay - it's actually easy. The answer is yes and no. Dennis' answer is great.
Tiger grizzle is an allele of (classical) grizzle. An allele is alternative at the same place on the chromosome. So the spot where wild-type mutated to grizzle can have a few things in that slot. One is (classic) grizzle, the other is Tiger grizzle. Tiger is dominant to grizzle. So if you have a bird that carries grizzle and Tiger, you should get a mottle (Tiger is one of the factors that leads to mottling)
Then we have the Flash Grizzle and undergrizzle and I'm betting that we're going to find a few more as we continue to study the birds.
The only time I've ever seen pied in Orientals was in birds that were crossed (everyone acknowledged that) to Birminghams, when Jim Greene tried to create Baldheads, etc. The birds I saw usually had only a few white flights etc. They're pretty well defunct now from what I understand.
The birds I had out of the Fernholtz X Husband line sometimes looked to be classic grizzle in nest plumage but then molted out to mottles (Tiger grizzles) in adult plumage.
I had a few of those BR crosses years ago.I flew them in mixed kits with some of my Fehrholz birds.While looking for some more pics of my old Fehrholz birds I found some pics of them.I'm still waiting for my neighbor to scan the Fehrholz pics(I think she forgot) so I'll drop off a couple of those pics to her also.I had a few bald head white flight birds(got the picture of them) and some of them were mottled.They didn't fly very good,no real rolling just some tumbles and shallow rolls,reminded me of the Orme birds I had,so I never bred from them and gave them to one of my buddies.He kept them in a mixed loft with flights and tipplers and they would kit good with them and do some tumbles every once and a while. Nick
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Nick Grzywacz
grzywacznkl@aol.com
"I hope he doesn't catch that black mottle.....AWH $%*%!!!!"
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7/24/2008, 7:12 am
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rollerdoneks
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Re: mottle or grizzle.
Bluebar, help me here! First let me repeat what you said.
The position the Grizzle gene occupies on a chromosome is called locus (Plural, loci). Tiger Grizzle is a allele which occur at the same locus as Classic Grizzle and is Dominate to Classic Grizzle. Thank you, I didn't know that or I was a bad student and it didn't sink in, in one ear and out the other.
My question is does this work like Crossover and can we get both Tiger Grizzle and Classic Grizzle? Crossing-over is a break, reshuffle or arrange in the Grizzle gene on the same chromosone. So we get both?
Another question, does Crossover only occur on sex chromosones? If so, we answered the first question!
Okay then! We have Classical Grizzle but we can't see it because of Tiger Grizzle. Now we need work to be done on the other Grizzles.
---
Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
rollerdoneks@skybeam.com
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7/24/2008, 3:23 pm
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