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bluebar
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Dennis, last question first. No, crossover does not only occur on the sex-chromosomes -- it's just sometimes easier to see the results in birds where that occurs.

We may NOT have classic grizzle in our birds, if one of two things has happened. Breeders over the years culled out anything that was classic looking. B: the wild-type never mutated to classic grizzle in our birds. Who's to say that Tiger grizzle wasn't the "original" grizzle and "classic" grizzle didn't mutate later in another bird family other than the Orientals or it was never in the original lines that went to Orientals. (I've seen a picture of a plate from classical Greece that show's a bird that looks so freakin' much like an Oriental Roller with a ribbon tail that my mouth dropped and it's supposed to be from about 500 B.C. (was this bird a tumbler? who knows?)

as for the crossover, I admit do being a tad weak about his stuff especially after so many years away from it, but I don't believe you can have a crossover at the same locus. There has to be some sort of a distance between factor for that to happen. I'm going to try to check on this though with a brilliant man I know (ain't me)

Frank
7/24/2008, 4:29 pm Send Email to bluebar   Send PM to bluebar
 
flatheadfisher
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Crossing over cannot occur at the same gene locus. When the chromosomes pair up during synapsis, they do so with precision - nucleotide for nucleotide. Recombinate chromosomes are exact matches as the original chromosomes as far as the number of base pairs is concerned. Translocation can result in extra genetic material on one chromosome and a deletion on its homolog. But, I don't think that is likely in this context - it would result in a partial aneuploid.



Last edited by flatheadfisher, 7/24/2008, 7:03 pm


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sippi3

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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Say What!!!!! emoticon

Sippi

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7/24/2008, 7:07 pm Send Email to sippi3   Send PM to sippi3
 
flatheadfisher
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Here is a link to an animation. of what happens in meiosis (the kind of cell division that produces sperm & egg). It shows how the homologous chromosomes line up during one part of the process. The homologous chromosomes are identical to each other except they may contain different alleles. In other words, they are the same size and shape and they contain the same sequence of genes. But, they may have the same alleles or different alleles. If they have the same alleles then they are homozygous at that locus (AA or aa). If they have different alleles, they are heterozygous at that locus (Aa). When you watch the animation, pay attention to the colors on the chromosomes. You will see that the colors get mixed up on the chromosomes in two of the cells. The chromosomes that have two colors are called "recombinate" chromosomes. This is one of the things that results in so much genetic diversity in sexually reproducing organisms - along with random fertilization and something called independent orientation. The point here is that even though you get different colors on two of the chromosomes, the chromosomes are still precisely the same length. This is why crossing over can't produce a chromosome with two of the same gene loci on one chromosomes. The only thing that comes close is called "translocation."

Translocation happens when one of the chromosomes breaks and attaches to another chromosome. This results in one of the cells having a chromosome that is longer and one that is shorter. This usually results in an embryo that doesn't survive. However, this kind of error sometimes results in viable offspring with a chromosomal abnormality. For example, in humans a form of Down's syndrome is the result of this sort of error of meiosis.

Here is the link to the animation.


Last edited by flatheadfisher, 7/24/2008, 7:28 pm


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Michael
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7/24/2008, 7:27 pm Send Email to flatheadfisher   Send PM to flatheadfisher
 
sharpshooters
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


quote:

flatheadfisher wrote:

Here is a link to an animation. of what happens in meiosis (the kind of cell division that produces sperm & egg). It shows how the homologous chromosomes line up during one part of the process. The homologous chromosomes are identical to each other except they may contain different alleles. In other words, they are the same size and shape and they contain the same sequence of genes. But, they may have the same alleles or different alleles. If they have the same alleles then they are homozygous at that locus (AA or aa). If they have different alleles, they are heterozygous at that locus (Aa). When you watch the animation, pay attention to the colors on the chromosomes. You will see that the colors get mixed up on the chromosomes in two of the cells. The chromosomes that have two colors are called "recombinate" chromosomes. This is one of the things that results in so much genetic diversity in sexually reproducing organisms - along with random fertilization and something called independent orientation. The point here is that even though you get different colors on two of the chromosomes, the chromosomes are still precisely the same length. This is why crossing over can't produce a chromosome with two of the same gene loci on one chromosomes. The only thing that comes close is called "translocation."

Translocation happens when one of the chromosomes breaks and attaches to another chromosome. This results in one of the cells having a chromosome that is longer and one that is shorter. This usually results in an embryo that doesn't survive. However, this kind of error sometimes results in viable offspring with a chromosomal abnormality. For example, in humans a form of Down's syndrome is the result of this sort of error of meiosis.

Here is the link to the animation.



Yeh,what he said!!! emoticon I don't have a clue what you guys are talking about,but I think it's pretty cool that you are that into it. emoticon I am starting to pick up a basic knowledge on the colors and what produces them from reading all the posts on here.Carry on. Nick emoticon

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Nick Grzywacz
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"I hope he doesn't catch that black mottle.....AWH $%*%!!!!"
7/24/2008, 8:10 pm Send Email to sharpshooters   Send PM to sharpshooters
 
rollerdoneks
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Thanks Frank, I do understand what you are saying. In Joe Quinn's handbook he only mentioned it using the Sex Chromosome. That's why I asked the question.
Now Michael lost me on Translocation and partial aneuploid. But Michael's last post did explain it so I did understand, after I read it three or four times.
I find it easier to understand if I visualize it in my "minds eye" and by explaining it, the way you did really helped.


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Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
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7/28/2008, 9:33 am Send Email to rollerdoneks   Send PM to rollerdoneks
 
Gaditano

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Re: mottle or grizzle.


Since Dennis mentioned Quinn's Notebook I thought I would cross-post a good post from Joe Powers on learning genetics:

"There have been a number of very basic questions on this group of late. There are a good number of very well versed genetic folks on here who can answer these questions. But (to me) that is not the way to LEARN genetics. I bet that most of those folks on here who have a good background did it by reading and studying. One of the best books to start with is Quinn's Notebook. It is not costly, and is very basic in how it goes through everything. By reading this (I've read some chapters more than 25 times) and then going out to look at your birds it reinforces what you read. This is the way to study and learn genetics. When you are stumped then ask questions. Just asking a question, without reading and studying on the gene[s] involved is not giving you the knowledge to build on.
 
When I first got Quinn's Notebook I read all of it through. Then as I could find time I read and read and studied chapters at a time. Patterns first, then colors and then into the various modifiers and how they all interact. Does take some time if you are green, no doubt about that. But it is the best way to learn and remember what you are working on.
 
Then as you know more, move up to Dr. Paul Gibson's genetics book or the one by Dr. Sell. I have both, among many, and find them to be very good.
 
Please note that I am not jumping on anyone who has been asking questions - just offering some adivice on how to learn more on genetics. After almost 40 years of studying pigeon genetics I still find there is much to learn.
 
Joe"

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Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts

Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club
7/28/2008, 10:25 am Send Email to Gaditano   Send PM to Gaditano
 
Gaditano

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Re: mottle or grizzle.


I am not suggesting people stop asking questions but I am saying you will never understand Pigeon color genetics just by asking questions on the forum and reading posts on the subject you will also need a good simple book like Quinns notebook and comparing it with live examples. I am a novice myself and I have learned a lot from the genetics forums but without having some books too, I doubt I would know much of anything. Just asking questions on the forum without some study of the books won't help much, I only get bits and pieces but the books put them altogether.

Problem is I find in the fancy that there's mainly two types of people, those that know little or nothing about genetics or experts, there seems to be no on in-between. Many of those that know little have been in the hobby for many years but get discouraged trying to learn. Some even are against it, as if it's a plague or something. But it's really not that hard if you get a book like Quinn's Notebook and take it step by step. You know need to go into depth and know all those big words Michael was using. it's pretty simple really, once you understand the basic principals.


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Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts

Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club
7/28/2008, 6:21 pm Send Email to Gaditano   Send PM to Gaditano
 
richardecolson
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Re: mottle or grizzle.


     The end result to all of this is SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO BREED THE BIRD TO DISCOVER THE TRUE COLOR. The phenotype how the bird looks does not tell the whole story while the genotype the gentic make up completes the package so as to speak!
Richard

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Richard Colson
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3/5/2009, 7:08 am Send Email to richardecolson   Send PM to richardecolson
 


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