grizzle? I crossed a white cоck to a black hen from my Barred birds. I needed to check the fertility of the White and that was the only mature hen available. I wasnt doing a color project. I got one black bar squeak with white flights and one black pepperhead with white mottled wing shields. I liked the color so I let them do it again. Same out come.
Now I know the whites are made up of recessive white and buff. The black hen is from my barred line and has no grizzle in her background. Only one pair has reached the first moult and it may be one black mottled instead of grizzle the other remained a black bar/white flight.
Question one. Where did the grizzle come from?
Question two. Where did the white flights come from?
I thought white flights signified pied which doesnt exist in niether line..
Re: grizzle? I believe the Grizzle comes from the white. The white must mask Grizzle if you know for certain there is no Grizzle in the other family.
Here's why I say that. If you know for sure there is no Grizzle in the barred family, it can't come from there because Grizzle is a dominate gene. In other words it can't be hidden like a recessive. If it's not shown on the parent bird, it cannot pass it on. However, it is hidden sometimes on the actual parent in the form of one white feather or white at the base of the legs. They call it being locked in. But if you know for certain it isn't there then it couldn't have come from the barred family.
2) You remember Scott Marshall? He was working with Husband whites and said he out crossed them to self colored FORs and they also produced "Grizzles or pieds" Do your remember that in Bob's old NPRA forum? He even showed pics.
I would suspect the white flights are the result of Grizzle and not pied. Tiger Grizzle can produce pied mimics. Pepperheads are usually Grizzles.
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club
Re: grizzle? Hi Paul, going on the case you have stated…..
According to Mendel (if I may), “it takes two recessives to produce a dominant“. Or if it isn’t in both parents, they can’t pass it on to the offspring. So both your birds carry a recessive gene for the color “grizzle”. And if the gene for grizzle is considered a dominant color, then by the name alone, it would dominate ALL other colors genes. And you could NOT get any other color, when breeding to a grizzle colored pigeon.
Of course in pigeons IMO, there are too many eyes…, judging too many color variances…, and giving them “names”. Even w/ ‘good’ pix/ examples the best of color judges can’t agree on a name for a particular color/ color combination.
--- Bill S.
www.ameronlofts.com
whsampson@sbcglobal.net
Re: grizzle? Makes sense that the white could be masking grizzle. Dale said he got mottled yellows which may have been grizzles. The original white hen also could have been red grizzle too.
Re: grizzle? It takes two recessive genes to fully express it self. As for Grizzle (G is a Dominate gene) it only takes one gene to express it self: One gene for Heterozygous G//+, Two genes for Homozygous G//G.
Grizzle is a Dominate gene and it only takes a microscopic part of a feather to be a Grizzle. The bird may look like a non-grizzle but it is a Grizzle. As I said in a past: that the color factor can be pasted on for many many generations before it expresses itself. Yes! recessive white can carry Grizzle and mask it. This is called Epistasis.
Are some Grizzles partial dominate???
--- Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
rollerdoneks@skybeam.com
Re: grizzle? Sippi,
How could you know what colors are in a recessive white?
The white would cover everything. The only way to find out would be to cross to birds that did not carry recessive white.
It would depend on what was used to originally bring in the recessive white (must have had pied).
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club
Re: grizzle?