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Gaditano
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Location: Tucson, Arizona USA
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Re: Immune System
Here's an interesting post I took from the NPA's forum, written by Richard Cyberg.
"I do not see why anyone treats one sick bird. If the bird is sick and the rest of the loft is healthy then there is something fundamentally wrong with that birds immune system. Say you manage to cure it. What do you have? What you have is a bird with bad immune system genes is what you have. It has the poorest immune system of any bird in your loft or it would not have been sick. Now you save it and bred from it and raise a whole loft full of birds with poor immune systems. A bit of that behavior for a few years and you will be treating every bird just to keep them alive.
I see zero purpose to using antibiotics on one sick bird when the rest of the birds in the same loft are not getting sick. I see zero purpose in using antibiotics even if every bird in the loft is sick but none or very few are dying. In either case by saving the weakest you are setting yourself up to breed more that are weak.
On the other hand if every bird is sick and a bunch are dying you have a choice to make. You can treat with antibiotics if you are convinced the problem is bacterial and save most of the birds from the epidemic. Or you can run the risk of not having any live birds left. Not having any live birds left is not a choice most of us are willing to make.
With viral diseases PMV is probably the worst in terms of death rates. What people are telling me is you can expect 30% losses if you get hit by a PMV epidemic. Antibiotics are not going to help a bit against PMV. On the other hand if you treat PMV with antibiotics you are not very likely at all to induce antibiotic resistance in any disease organisms as you are not dealing with any bacteria. If there are no pathogenic bacteria present they sure can not become resistant to the antibiotic. You do run the risk of killing off the beneficial bacteria with the antibiotic resulting in invasion of secondarys that would not be a problem if you had not used the antibiotic at all. So at absolute best if it is a virual problem the antibiotic is a waste of time and a worst case is you kill some extra birds with secondarys that resulted from the antibiotic use.
The most important thing to remember is disease resistance is inherited just like most everything else. If you want birds that do not get sick to start with just do not save the odd bird that gets sick while the rest of the loft is ok. Also being too clean is becoming recognized as a problem in itself. Did you know some pediatricians are now recommending every kid between ages one and three should eat a teaspoon of dirt from the yard per day? Well, this is a growing recommendation. It exposes the young kid to all kinds of mild pathogens when his or her immune system is immature and not prone to over reaction. By this kind of immune system training the child grows up with a robust immune system better able to handle insults that it will inevitably encounter in life. I think a loft full of pathogens that are not particularly virulent is a great loft. The birds will get exposed when young and develop robust immune systems and be tough at old birds. Even if we had vaccines for everything of major importance such training of the immune system is essentual to good health and long life.
To put it is terms of human health I suppose all of you recall the deaths are few years ago due to e coli contamination of ground beef. Did you ever stop to wonder why only a tiny number of people died and a few more got sick but did not die when many thousands of people ate that contaminanted beef? Well, I grew up on a dairy farm. I could probably have eaten that beef raw for every meal for weeks and never become sick at all. The reason is as a kid I simply had to have been exposed to all the strains of e coli in a cows gut and should be fully immune. But take some person that grew up in town and never encountered that particular stain of e coli and he gets real sick or dies. Part of being healthy is getting exposed to things so your immune system will solve the problem for you without needing antibiotics all the time.
****
Ohio"
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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12/13/2008, 10:22 am
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bpd506
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Re: Immune System
I think he makes a very good point, that being the over use of antibiotics. Even in us humands we are quick to medicate and vaccinate instead of letting the body do its work and fight. As for the loft, there is a difference between filthy and dirty. I for one do not clean my loft everyday liked I used to. It gets dirty, not filthy. Just my thoughts.
formerly ICE BOUND! Wayne
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12/13/2008, 4:13 pm
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sharpshooters
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Re: Immune System
I agree big difference between dirty and filthy. I scrape my lofts just about every day. We keep the birds in artifical unnatural conditions.No matter how much you clean your loft,the birds are still going to be standing in their crap during some part of the day. I wouldn't allow my lofts to become dirty to make my birds "healthy". Most of the very successful racing homer guys keep their lofts spotless and don't go crazy medicating their birds. I think all the 3,4 and 5 in 1 powders out there are the worst possible thing for your birds.Identify the problem and treat just for that. The old shotgun approach to deal with problems does more harm than good in my opinion.I've been into pigeons for around 28 years now and one thing I have noticed is if alot of the roller guys kept their birds and lofts as clean as the homer guys,they wouldn't have as many of the problems they try to treat with the good ol' 4 in 1 powders.I have thought about getting birds before and went to lofts or saw online pics of filthy birds,green runny crap or 2 inches of crap on the perches and floors and said no thanks! 
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Nick Grzywacz
grzywacznkl@aol.com
"I hope he doesn't catch that black mottle.....AWH $%*%!!!!"
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12/13/2008, 4:59 pm
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bpd506
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Re: Immune System
I knew one guy, racer who wouldn't clean his breeding section for the season. He thought that the young once they left the nest would peck around and be subjected to various bacteria and build up an immunity. That was the extreme, but then again there was a time that guys used the litter system and would have several inches of dry droppings. They swore that it made for healthier birds. I scrape every few days. There was a guy in my club, race club that had some form of medication in his race teams water 6 days a week. Seems his birds never did much as old birds, did he ruin them with the medication? I think so.
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12/13/2008, 7:30 pm
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Gaditano
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Re: Immune System
I heard many of the probiotics on the market are made from healthy Pigeon droppings. The bacteria in them is what boosts the immune system.
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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12/13/2008, 8:53 pm
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Socorro
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Re: Immune System
I have been in the loft of World Cup Birmingham Roller Fly winner,John Weins,and he uses the deep litter system.It was dry inside,did not smell bad and he has world class birds.To many falcons tho.
Last edited by Socorro, 12/13/2008, 9:19 pm
---
Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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12/13/2008, 9:19 pm
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rollerdoneks
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Re: Immune System
Back in Minnesota and the three times I flew the World Cup BR Fly, I had the top score for Minnesota. I never gave meds and the one to three babies that would get canker each year would be culled. Three of the four years I flew I was the Minnesota Master Flyer. I didn't beleive in meds. I had six to eight inches of floor litter and the water jugs were cleaned with bleach three to four times per year whether they needed it or not!
Now Racing Homers are a different story. I came in with the same attitude. The first year was a disaster Pigeon Pox, canker, respirtory problems and just poor flying. So now I give meds, shots and expensive probiotics. What a difference. So the last two of my three years flying Homers I was First in our club and second in the Combine. I came to the conclusion that Racing Homers are a bunch of sickly birds without their meds.
Now this takes us to 2008 and I am not flying homers or giving any meds other then inexpensive "Dimond V Brewers Yeast" I buy it by the 50# bag. We give it to the Alpaca, Dairy Goats, Dogs, Pigeons and me. We all eat it. I also drink raw goats milk, loaded with healthy natual benifical bacteria, The kind God meant us to consume.
Now I don't want to have the same thing happen to the FORs as did to the Racing Homer Breed. This is my loft now [ no meds, dirty water containers, and dirty nest compartments]and I do have healthy birds. The loft cost a little over $3.000.00 and is an attractive well built and ventilated winning loft.
I think I will go and have a glass of Goats milk right now!
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Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
rollerdoneks@skybeam.com
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12/14/2008, 11:34 am
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bpd506
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Re: Immune System
As for homers being sickly, I don't think so. I believe it depends on the handler and how he cares for them. The ACE in my club vaccinates his birds for PMV-1 and pox, other than that he doesn't medicate. For years if he gets a sick one it is culled. The flyer I mentioned in my last post is well known in the racing circles and he does ok in youngbirds, in oldbirds not so good. I think all the medicating he does when they are young ruins them. Most in my club are going the route of natural. There's alot to be said for good sound management. My thoughts and experience.
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12/14/2008, 3:00 pm
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Gaditano
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Re: Immune System
IMHO, scraping is for the fancier's eye and not the Pigeon's health. I don't believe it makes the Pigeons healthier at all. Clean water everyday with probiotics a couple of times per week with a dry, well ventilated loft are the main things needed for the Pigeon's health.
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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12/14/2008, 3:11 pm
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bpd506
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Re: Immune System
Alan, Ditto. IMHO,? I'm not to savvy with the computer lingo. Wayne
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12/14/2008, 3:21 pm
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