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Socorro
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Location: Gabriola Island,B.C.,Canada.
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FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
I've been corresponding with a gentleman who is deep into raising Flying Orientals but is not a member of this club.He told me one reason he has not joined,and I will quote his words. "Too much FANTASY!Many people who don't know alot about FORs have the wrong information about this breed,like--ORs can outfly hawks anytime.Do you know that theories like that can bring down the popularity of the breed once they find out the truth?"
I tend to agree with him in that they will not always be able to dodge BOP and there will be unlucky times when they are snagged and eaten,but here on this forum I'm yet to hear of any ORs being actually taken in the air.I think it would be good to have any instances of our ORs being TAKEN also posted on this list.It would be interesting to hear the actual circumstances of the attack and hit.
Last edited by Socorro, 11/11/2008, 10:01 am
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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11/11/2008, 9:40 am
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rapp
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
All I can tell you is I have had a kit up almost every day for over a year and I have seen many attacks on my birds but I have not had one taken yet. Your friend seems a little extreme with his attitude as there are exceptions to every thing. I also race homers and fly them almost every day too and I lose racers to BOP every year. I am sure that we all will loose FOR'S to BOP once in a while but as an average they are much more aware of there surroundings and what is coming into there space which gives them more time for counter maneuvers and escape routes. I will agree that when I loose one to a BOP I will put up a post with the all the particulars of the attack I can.
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Bob Rapp Penn Valley Ca.
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11/11/2008, 10:31 am
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rollerdoneks
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
He didn't say what family of Flying Oriental Rollers he has. Some are better and that's why I have what I have.
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Dennis L. Radi
Idar Lofts
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11/11/2008, 11:09 am
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maxspin
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
Kelly,
Let me put it this way. Last year I banded 77 Birmingham's. At lock down Oct 1, I have 33 left. My survival rate for young birds is only 43%. I only culled for tree sitting. (A bad habit they pick up hiding from the falcons). I lose another high percentage getting them going again after lock down. I don't even get to cull for performance.
If I have 60% survival of the FOR's I will consider it a HUGE success.
My fear is that I will have the same issue with the FOR's that I do with the Birminghams. They will learn that the peregrins don't get them in the trees.
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Keith Maxwell
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11/11/2008, 11:16 am
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Gaditano
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
No one has ever been extreme by saying ORs can out fly hawks anytime, anywhere. I don't know where he gets his information. We have tried to temper it by telling people they are not Hawk proof. We have had people step up and say they have lost birds to the Hawks. I have not seen anyone here who is exaggerating or leaving out the facts of what happens when we fly our birds. To accuse us of that would mean we are all flat out liars. This is not the case.
No one flies as many FORs are Sippi. Are all of his stories lies? What would be his motive for lying?
Personally, I have never "seen" one of my FORs get caught by a Hawk. That don't mean it hasn't happened. I just haven't seen it. I know for a fact I have lost many to the Hawks but these are due to overflies of squeekers while in training and some older birds as well. I have to believe some of these squeekers have been caught and eaten but I have yet to witness it.
We have told people over and over and over a lot depends on the conditions you fly your birds in. Haven't we said countless times before that if you have a lot of big thick trees next to your loft, you will get massacred by the Coopers Hawks, who are ambush predators? We are not living in fantasy land. All we have ever claimed is that they are one of the more Hawk resistant breed of Pigeons. No one has claimed they are Hawk proof, that's ridiculous.
Maybe your friend has some type of complex against clubs. He seems very negative and hyper critical to me. This club has done more in the last year to promote this breed than anyone I know of has done in his lifetime. The only people I have found that are against it are those of the show OR persuasion or those that listen to their slander. Many of them are still bitter about something that happened more than 10 years ago and almost all of those people from our club are no longer with us, but they are still carrying a grudge.
Besides, this club is about a lot more than having a hawk resistant breed. It's true that many people are interested in the FOR for that reason (that's their problem), but that's just a small part of what this club is about and I believe it's reflected in the newsletter articles.
I have said this a million times and I guess I will say it another million times or till the day I die... The primary reason I love this breed is not because of it's evasive abilities. If there were no more hawks, I would still keep this breed over Birmingham Rollers or any other Tumbler/Roller breed.
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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11/11/2008, 11:20 am
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Gaditano
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
quote:
rollerdoneks wrote:
He didn't say what family of Flying Oriental Rollers he has. Some are better and that's why I have what I have.
That's a good point! Some people are working with the show type with heavy culling and getting some rolling back into them but they are not built correctly for evasion of Hawks.
Also, a lot depends on where you fly them. if you fly them under a bunch of thick trees, you will get massacred by Coopers Hawks.
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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11/11/2008, 11:27 am
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Socorro
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
Oigah,,hope I didn't stir any hard feelings by my post,tho I must admit I do enjoy some discussion on this.I met the fellow on the internet and I quoted him to get it out there for some response,that's all.I'm not saying anyone is lying and there was no ill intention.
Dennis,
A mix of famillies but originating from German imports.
Keith,
I'm in the same boat as you with the BRs.
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Kelly Waugh
Rum:30 Lofts
Gabriola Island,B.C.,
Canada.
Ed FORS Newsletter
islanddoves@telus.net
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11/11/2008, 12:42 pm
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Gaditano
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
No, I know you aren't accusing anyone of lying, but your friend is.
quote:
A mix of families but originating from German imports
There have been two strains of German imports. The first includes the German show birds that George De La Nuez and John Nelson have imported. The second strain are the Fehrholz flying birds imported by Andy Estrada. These are two totally different breeds.
The German show birds haven't been flown in Germany in many generations. They are smaller than the American show birds and are shown over here by Nelson and others under the Flying Oriental Roller standard. The Fehrholz birds are strictly a flying breed and look a lot different in type than the other German strain.
Because of a lack of available genetic material, many people have been working with the German show birds to bring back their performance ability. This is accomplished by heavy culling. How well they evade hawks I cannot say.
--- Alan Bliven - Circus Lofts
Member of the National Pigeon Association, Flying Oriental Roller Society, Horseman Pouter Club of North America, Voorburg Shield Cropper Club and the Tucson Pigeon Club |
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11/11/2008, 1:08 pm
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roler7
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
quote:
How well they evade hawks I cannot say.
I can; if I keap the score it would be around 100 to 6. This 6 are lost to a cooper.
I belive people who are looking for something (ea hawk-proof pigeon), tend to disregard ewrything else once they find a trace of IT.
Last year after I had my orientals a frend asked me if I know that hawks can't catch an oriental. He found some article on line, this club was not active at the time. So the story was out when and by whoom is irelevant. Those that fall in love with this particular pigeon (like I have), are going to look for what they find in it, not necesarily the same thing they were looking for.
Also many people were and are going to be in and out (bred and clubs) - I coldn't care less.
Samir
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11/11/2008, 2:54 pm
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sharpshooters
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Re: FORs ability to outmanouver BOP,but are they ever caught?
Like I said from the very begining,it depends more on WHERE you fly than WHAT you fly. I have a small yard surronded by huge oak trees and the coopers hawks destroy my Fehrholz birds when they are young and learning to trap.When the survivors get older they are better than any other breed I've flown(quite a few) but they still will get whacked in an ambush every now and then.I'm going to fly from mobile boxes in big fields this coming year. I don't think any strain that tries to stay down and outfly a coops in the woods would last long here.The Fehrholz sky up,WAY UP,when a hawk makes a run at them. Dennis flys them for the same reason,ask him how the Husbands made out trying to stay low and fly in cover around his place.If my area was a little more open I think that either strain of OR would work good. They have the best evasive manuvers of any pigeon breed I've seen.I think they will do WAAAAAYYYYY better than Birms no matter where you fly them.There were a few guys in the past that exagerated the birds "anti hawk" abilities,I think just to make some $$$$$. One of the A$$holes got quite a bit of my money years ago.I fly the Fehrholz birds because I love how high they fly and how great they perform.I fly my birds strictly for enjoyment and like to joke around on this forum but the one thing I won't do is BS any of you about what my birds can and can't do.  (ps, I never flew any Husband birds ,so I can't say 100% that they would get hit here,but I would bet you at 99.9%  )
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Nick Grzywacz
grzywacznkl@aol.com
"I hope he doesn't catch that black mottle.....AWH $%*%!!!!"
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11/11/2008, 3:19 pm
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