Zoph
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QQ's rant on PvP
This is that link to that forum I was telling some of y'all about Sat night. It's just a rant (I didn't read the whole thing, though, so there might be some good info in there) but it is an interesting read. Personally, I think they're just a little over dramatic over it, but we'll leave that up for discussion.
http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1010
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3/19/2007, 8:34 am
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Andovar
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Re: QQ's rant on PvP
Actually, I think what they're asking is quite absurd.
In one statement they're saying PvP is an afterthought for Anet, and in the next they're asking for PvP to only exist withing the core game?
I could be wrong, but from all the stuff I've read on various forums over the past couple years, the PvP community in general would be up in arms over being completely ignored. No more new PvP content...ever? They would be leaving the game in droves. I don't care who you are, but the same maps/classes/skills all the time would eventually get boring. Even for the most hardcore PvP "purists".
This sounds a lot like a long nerf whine. "oh no, we can't run that uber build anymore because the new PvP additions have countered it"
The bottom line is that everyone is playing the same game. So if there's an imbalance, take advantage of it until it is fixed.
No game is ever going to be perfectly balanced, but Anet does a pretty good job overall of trying to keep things in check.
As far as I'm concerned, it's part of the fun of the game. You have to figure out how to counter your opponents while in battle. You also have to figure out the ebb and flow of the metagame and the counters to that while outside of battle.
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3/19/2007, 12:22 pm
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Dannzzigg
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Re: QQ's rant on PvP
A tad bit overdramatic is putting it lightly.
What they need to do, IMO is respond faster and with more effectiveness.
More frequent updates, with more input from a wide ranging group of the affected playerbase would solve a lot of the issues.
It's what they do in those updates that has the most meaning. Nerfing a skill into oblivion doesn't help much, and neither does a "slap on the wrist". Two balance changes I can think of that serve as great examples are the long ago change to Obsidian Flame (changed casting time to 2 seconds from a much shorter one) and the more recent change to Shadow Prison (increased energy cost from 5 to 10). Both skills are still usable in their new form, but not abusable.
I get what these guys are complaining about- skills that in their current form define the metagame simply by being very powerful- but their answer to it seems rediculous and certainly would hurt the future of the game.
Limiting GvG to Core/Prophecies skillsets would keep many folks from becoming interested in it. Simply put, the more folks that are playing GvG, the more money ANet will make. Granted, a lot of the top 100 guilds may be upset by the proliferation of other skills and the percieved power creep since Factions, but we have the good fortune of recently confirming that there are at least 7500 guilds out there who have GvG's at least some in the past. Imagine if the majority of those 7500 guilds did not buy a new expansion... Now compare that to the top 100 not buying. Who's going to win that argument?
Speaking strictly from my own perspective as a GvGer who is not concerned about the ladder but does want to be competetive in every match I play, I welcome the diversity of builds available even as we come across ones that roll us based on some gimmick. Our ability to deal with the gimmicks is what is in question. No one has comeup with an unbeatable build yet, and regardless of the skills available and their relative power, I don't think anyone ever will.
--- Check out Dylan's Den!
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3/19/2007, 4:40 pm
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Zoph
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Re: QQ's rant on PvP
I think what it boils down to is two things: The first being no one ever stays at the top of the latter. It's always shifting, because someone is always coming out with a better build, or a way to use a skill that hadn't been noticed before, or something like that. So those in the top of the guild latter (200+) are complaining because they're always having to adjust..well, that's life, get use to it.
The other part: someone is always coming out with a better build. Relates to the first part, but all well. The diversity in builds makes it exciting, but also annoying too. I did get tired of having to change my build on a weekly basis (or more told to change my build) because of something that we ran up against in another GvG. It's not a bad thing when you're starting out, changing your build, but when you have to change it on a daily basis, trying to adjust to what you MIGHT be fighting in the top of the latter, it gets a little insane. I think something they're looking for is the 'we kinda know what to expect' mentality rather than the total randomness that there is out there now in GvG.
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3/19/2007, 5:52 pm
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Dannzzigg
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Re: QQ's rant on PvP
The way I've always looked at things regarding changing a build, whether it's the entire team build's concept or even tweaking a skill or two here or there on one character's bar, is this:
If you can impose your will on your opponent with enough speed, force, and accuracy then their build is inconsequential. Whether you run a Pressure build that can dish out heavy pressure in a short period of time and still contains enough critical counters to keep your team alive, or a spike build that kills instantly, it all comes down to being able to do what YOU want to do before the enemy can do what THEY want to do.
Sometimes this involves countering the enemy's plans so that your plan will suceed first, other times it involves killing them before they can bring their plan to fruition. Having basic counters in place in each build for the most popular hindrances to your build, or to those that would be most dmaaging to your ability to impose your will on the enemy makes good sense. But trying to counter everything you may come across, or trying to counter whatever it was that beat you last is counter productive.
As you say, the total randomness that is GvG, even at the lower levels of the ladder (and perhaps moreso, even) makes it entirely impossible to predict what you will be facing. This makes it both interesting and annoying. If you continue to run into builds for which you have absolutely no counter, and your tactics and execution of them are sound, then perhaps the build does need to be rethought and some flexibility added. Otherwise, simply (o.k.- I know it's not that simple) impose your will on the enemy before they can impose theirs on yours.
--- Check out Dylan's Den!
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3/19/2007, 6:33 pm
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DamonIsa
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Re: QQ's rant on PvP
What you're talking about there Boss Man happened in Magic before. It was a time called "Combo Summer", where basically every deck could win on their first turn, before the opponent even got a turn. So matches (Best two out of three) basically came down to who won the opening coin flip and got to play first, in the first game...
Yeah.
That doesn't happen in Guild Wars. Even when people ***** and moan about a skill being too powerful, or a spike being too fast, etc. It's not because the skills are all that powerful. It's because people aren't willing to branch out and find Counters for it.
Like the Toucher Builds in AvA and RA back in Factions... I never had trouble with them. My comfort zone with Smite/Heal Monks, Shutdown Mesmers, Energy Denial Rangers, etc, had no problem at all dealing with them.
But people were screaming nerf because that means their little Echo Nukers, IWAY warriors, and MMs were weak.
There is enough skills out there I can't imagine anyone ever having a build where some "Rogue Character" couldn't come in, with some abnormal skill set, and just slaughter them.
I know I do all the time. Like in HvH where The Searing Flames eles are popular. I just bring two monks, both with Spell Breaker, and I'm fine.
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Niva Reikan: Warrior/Monk, Kurzick Champion
Arcturus Highwind: Paragon/Ranger
Pet: ROUS
Walker Tam: Warrior, Defender of Ascalon in Training
Nikolia Vasburg: Ritualist/Necromancer
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3/19/2007, 8:17 pm
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