Page 1 2 3 4
ThatBallGuy
Discordian Bodhisattva
Global User
Registered: 04-2005
Location: Nomadic Myco-Gypsy
Posts: 4647
Karma: 113 (+154/-41)
|
 | 
|
|
Come, let us reason together. . . .
So Yellowfeather and I were discoursing on Facebook chat. We discussed many of the points brought up in previous posts here in the philosophy section. It was an exceedingly civil, and I should hope, constructive conversation.
With his permission, I'm copying the details here.
*****blah, the chat window didn't keep the full history, so this cuts in in mid-conversation*************
Gerard
much of what is included in many of these books [scriptures] involves political grandstanding and social organization of a particular society at a specific moment in time.
this is where the "spirit" of the law becomes important, and why it is more important to me.
10:04amKevin
And I see your point of reasoning here
but my issue is this
you are making the call on what is right or "of the spirit"
you make this call independant of a scripture
10:05amGerard
taken as a complete work with overarching themes and trends, most faith traditions espouse a belief in the importance of living a life of peace, love, and respect for your neighbor and yourself, as well as the environment you inhabit
10:05amKevin
so why claim that this decision is guided by the fictional character described in the book?
10:05amGerard
because humans are weak
10:05amKevin
haha, but we are here
god still hasn't shown up
and as for that "all religions espouse peace" line. . .it just doesn't hold up
yeah, religions are evolving like everything else
10:06amGerard
did i say all?
10:06amKevin
and thankfully are becoming more altruistic
10:06amGerard
i said "most"
10:06amKevin
hence it took islam a lot shorter time to give us ba'hai, whereas it took 2000 years for christianity to give us Unitarian Universalists (christian analog to the Ba'hai(
10:07amKevin
but from Krishna, to many sects of buddhism, to seikism, judaism, islam, christianity. . . .they all condone violence, teach that humans are "sinful" and need "redemption" (i.e. you must apologize for being human)
and lower their adherants to a sub-human level
10:08amGerard
but, you see... those steps were taken using the scriptures sacred to muhammad's followers and those of christ
10:08amKevin
yeah, cutting out the crap in religions and consciously evolving with them
but the religions themselves are monstrous
there are religious people who are good
and religious people who are also intelligent
but they are good/intelligent IN SPITE of their religion, not because of it
10:11amGerard
as far as the others you noted, i think the difference is one of priorities. they free themselves by abandoning their temporal desires and seek to grow inwardly. if they use an arcane construct to do so, that's their prerogative.
10:12amKevin
for sure
and I have no problems with the methods utilized to attain that other headspace
I myself practice meditation regularly
as well as dream-yoga and hatha-yoga
if I'm "calling out" to anything, I'll adopt a metaphor for the non-linear dynamic that is our universe. . .I call to Eris
but Eris is not the basis or ground for my outlook on life
my sense of morality or ethics
10:14amGerard
but that's you
10:14amKevin
yes
10:14amGerard
some choose to devote themselves to Eris
10:14amKevin
because I admit that I created my god
yes, I know
and so far I haven't heard of any wars, genocide, revenge killings, or witch hunts conducted by Erisian discordians
10:15amGerard
you created the figure, but the non-linear dynamic that is our universe pre-existed your assessment and naming of it, did it not?
|
|
7/25/2009, 11:46 am
|
|
ThatBallGuy
Discordian Bodhisattva
Global User
Registered: 04-2005
Location: Nomadic Myco-Gypsy
Posts: 4647
Karma: 113 (+154/-41)
|
|
|
|
|
…
10:15amKevin
I have no way of determining that
10:16amGerard
conjecture?
10:16amKevin
that the universe existed before me I must accept
10:16amGerard
okay
10:16amKevin
and the "laws" of the universe seem to be consistent
10:16amGerard
agreed.
10:16amKevin
but that there was an omnipotent being or entity that created said universe, I see no need to bring in excess entities
just like I don't need Thor to think about lightning
10:17amGerard
right
may i?
10:17amKevin
may you what? Think about thor?
sure, knock your lights out 
10:17amGerard
haha, no... bring a retort.
10:17amKevin
go ahead
10:19amGerard
you joke does work with what i was going to say, though. we are used to going into these thought experiments and exercises and live in a time and space when the institutions and classifications of modern science are the order of the day.
10:19amKevin
indeed
10:20amGerard
the words we use, the definitions, the way we conceive is all a feature of our society, yes?
10:20amKevin
yes, the metaphor is not the reality it describes, the map is not the territory
10:22amGerard
but really, they're just words. they're just metaphors. it's the same map it was 5000 years ago, but we use a different key. it is my suspicion, having researched ATR and Khemetic philosophy, that practiced initiates of "the mysteries" don't really believe all the mumbojumbo and haven't for aeons.
10:23amKevin
but the idea of a pre-existent deity that "created" a complex world gives no answers
the question posed is "where did a complex universe come from?"
10:23amGerard
that's fine
you want answers, when to some that's not important
10:24amKevin
theists maintain that a complex universe had to be designed
hence, a designer
10:24amGerard
[nods]
10:24amKevin
but in order for something to create a complex universe, it must be even MORE complex
10:24amGerard
yes.
10:24amKevin
so it leads us to an infinite regress that never resolves
10:25amGerard
yes.
10:25amKevin
whereas if we refine our metaphors to give us a closer understanding of reality, we see that the complex arises from the simple
10:26amGerard
seed/tree, chicken/egg
10:27amGerard
because the seed of the complex is contained within the simple, it is arguable that- on a certain level and in a certain manner of speaking- the seed/egg is the more complex
10:28amKevin
but the seed/tree is the same organism, just one is a reproductive germ
but it contains all the "information" for a tree
10:28amGerard
yes!!!
oi... i'm trying to get you to ssee how my mind is working
10:28amKevin
whereas the organic molecules that were the precursers of life
were simpler than the first cells
|
|
7/25/2009, 11:46 am
|
|
ThatBallGuy
Discordian Bodhisattva
Global User
Registered: 04-2005
Location: Nomadic Myco-Gypsy
Posts: 4647
Karma: 113 (+154/-41)
|
|
|
|
|
…
10:29amGerard
when is say God/Allah/Chukwu/Legba is One, i don't mean singular.
I say*
i mean One, all-encompassing, omni-involved
10:31amGerard
your Eris
10:34amKevin
however, if I (or anyone) justifies ANY belief as being "of the spirit" of any deity, we're anthropomorphizing the cosmos and introducing fictional characters
instead of using reason/rationality to deduce a conclusion
10:35amGerard
i agree.
10:36amGerard
but you know that the majority are just that, a majority. drones, willing to follow rather than ask the hard questions.
10:36amKevin
and since things like science are self-correcting (e.g. it was shown how eugenics was a faulty interpretation of natural selection), I find them to be more conducive to human societies than inventing deities as a metaphor for something WE CAN understand
I'd just rather do without the metaphysical baggage that fosters extreme/dangerous modes of thought
eugenics has been thoroughly debunked because we can demonstrate it to be a faulty interpretation of data that doesn't have a referent in reality
but even well intentioned individual like yourself create an imaginary 3rd party who has very human desires/drives/emotions, and then the masses latch on to that, and some do atrocities in the name of the deity
my view is "why accept such an obtuse metaphor when a more accurate(read: greater predictability) model/metaphor is available and causes less human suffering?
10:40amGerard
because, in addition to being drones- maybe because of it, they's stupid [sic]
10:41amKevin
my point exactly
10:41amGerard
10:42amKevin
you mind if I copy/paste this in the philosophy section?
10:42amGerard
where we part ways is that i believe there to be a non-physical, non-chemical dimension to reality that science has yet to answer.
no problem
it'd be nice
10:43amKevin
I believe there CAN be a non-physical, non-chemical dimension to reality
but if it interacts in any way with our reality, then it should be measurable
it should have an effect
otherwise it would be said, for all intents and purposes, to not exist
10:44amGerard
the effects that it does have are usually on
a small scale.
10:44amKevin
??
can you show evidence of this effect?
10:46amGerard
what you would call evidence, probably not
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew
10:50amKevin
firstly, I'd like to see this published in a peer-reviewed journal and replicated (no, things like this aren't excluded a priori, they're usually rejected due to a lack of data/reproducibility )
secondly, why would we assume that this is a non-physical or "super"-natural phenomenon?
many phenomenon we've observed could not be explained in terms of the current paradigm
hence science had to self-correct to develop a more accurate metaphor to explain/predict the phenomenon
and if we want to go with statistics. . .EVERY new discovery about life/death and everywhere in between has been shown to have a physical basis, even if we didn't previously understand it
10:53amKevin
and there's this to consider: If what they are talking about is legit and can be replicated with consistency. . .you know how many nobel prizes and other awards/grants they'd be getting?
same as if someone proved evolution to be incorrect
Gerard
[chortles]
okay, okay... see, i told you we wouldn't see eye to I
10:56amKevin
hehe
10:56amGerard
, had to...
for instance, i've seen and experienced the inflow of the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, healing by the laying on of hands
10:58amKevin
then ****ing report that to a medical journal and we can stop wasting money on medical research
speaking in tongues is horse****, no offense
10:58amGerard
your stance, none taken.
10:59amKevin
how is speaking gibberish a sign of a "holy spirit"?
seriously
altered mind-states? sure
10:59amGerard
words, bruh...words.
11:01amKevin
again, if you're introducing an anthropomorphic entity with desires/drives/emotions similar to humans, then you're opening that whole ontological floodgate that permits crusades/jihads, even if you yourself don't condone them
11:02amGerard
anthropomorphic entity, yes. but conceiving of "that which Is" as a single vital [read "living"] conciousness? is that incorrect
sorry... not single, but unified.
11:04amKevin
if we identify this "unified" consciousness as similar to "My" or "our" consciousness, then yes
for example, there's no reason to believe that an ant's self-awareness resembles ours in the slightest
and they outweigh mammals 4/1 in brazil
there is no "kindness" in that consiousness
there is no "hope"
there is no "jealousy"
11:05amGerard
no, but inasmuch as it is self-aware, is concious, we are one
11:05amKevin
all of these are artifacts of human minds
is it self-aware?
"I think therefore I am"
11:05amGerard
it is oft generally agreed that humans function at a higher level
11:05amKevin
but what if it never asks that question
and why would we say our consiousness is unified?
we don't say the same thing about our [ants and human] legs
our legs aren't unified
they are different, but we both have them
but they're not unified
why should the consciousness be unified?
**thought of or conceived as unified?
I'm curious as to what those people were "healed" of, btw. . .I've seen lots of cases of fraud and bogus "healings" by the laying on of hands
never seen a limb regrown
11:10amGerard
11:10amKevin
and you know, if I saw a leg regrown from the thigh down. . .I'd consider that overwhelming evidence
11:12amGerard
diabetis, heart attack/disease, stroke[effects], cancer, mental issues
11:12amKevin
then they should report it in a medical journal and reproduce the effects so people can stop wasting money on chemotherapy and psychiatric treatment
sometimes cancer goes into regression
it happens
it's a natural phenomenon
11:13amGerard
i was in the hospital 5 days, admitted for gastrointeritis, renal failure and acidic pneumonia. after my grandmother and i prayed, doctor came back and said that "everything we found that caused us concern disappeard"
11:13amKevin
it's on the narrow end of the probability curve but it happens
then report it if you're so convinced it was supernatural
but what about the arrogance. . .you think the mother of a starving child in the horn of Africa doesn't pray for her child to be spared?
maybe she didn't say the right prayer
or about the thousands of underage girls that will be raped and/or mutilated today
and the families that pray for their abducted children to be returned
shucks, guess they've got the wrong prayer, or just aren't sincere enough
sometimes an abducted child is returned
it happens
for purely naturalistic reasons
it's on the narrow end of the probability curve, but it happens
and those that find themselves on that end of the curve say "it's a miracle!" while ignoring the sincere masses that are suffering in the broad bell of the curve
11:18amKevin
and any mindset that encourages prayer over medical treatment (even alternative medicinal treatments) I find to be horrendous
anyways, I gotta jet yo, sorry for the rant
11:19amGerard
s'aight
11:19amKevin
be well man
11:28amGerard
yo, too. peace
|
|
7/25/2009, 11:47 am
|
|
ThatBallGuy
Discordian Bodhisattva
Global User
Registered: 04-2005
Location: Nomadic Myco-Gypsy
Posts: 4647
Karma: 113 (+154/-41)
|
|
|
|
|
…
Note to Yellowfeather. . .feel free to continue this discussion in this thread
|
|
7/25/2009, 11:57 am
|
|
yellowfeather
KnottyLocks.Tk
Global User
Registered: 06-2008
Location: Twilight
Posts: 1518
Karma: 36 (+40/-4)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Come, let us reason together. . . .
[bravo and +K to TBG for copying/pasting/editing this whole thing, we talked for a good li'l while]
to your exiting rant, i think that these constructs are important in providing hope where it may otherwise be hard to find. whether their situation changes or not, they have something to hold on to. and i think there are two ways to deal with any negative situation. do your best to change it, or sit back and accept it. that, to me, is independent of a belief [or non-belief] in a sentient diety.
as far as reporting experiences, i- and i suspect most people with empirical evidence- don't feel like being put through the ringer and berated by people that really don't believe a word your saying anyway. also, because the experiences are largely sporadic, we'd probably be rediculed. besides, i've got better things to do with my life and time than sit in a lab being experimented on. thanks, but no thanks.
if there were a large body of people willing to participate, maybe i'd be for it; but naw...
---
and miles to go before i sleep, and miles to go before i sleep...
|
|
7/25/2009, 1:12 pm
|
|
streetwiseR
Hue-man is GOD
Global User
Registered: 04-2007
Posts: 7771
Karma: 44 (+110/-66)
|
|
|
|
|
Re: …
read the discussion, heres what my opinion of it was...
" QUOTE "
10:31amGerard
your Eris
, time combined to form IamGerard.
anyways, you're both wrong about alot of **** that i dont feel like discussing, since they have been done 993252398 of times.
ballguy is generally right and yellowfeather is wrong, ballguy can support some of his views with fact, yellowfeather can't.
two things i'll address about yellowfeather is your belief that nophysical exists... thats foolish, and i'd like for you to point out atleast 1 nonphysical entity in this universe, ATLEAST 1.
another thing is your bleiefs about speaking in tongues, they're wrong.
the purpose for the bibical "speaking in tongues" is because apostles would minister to those in foreign lands where there existed a language barrier, so they would speak in those tongues. it wasn't some freakish and incoherent act, it was actual speaking in tongues/languages, according to the bible. the **** was a linua franca of sorts.
the bible explicitly states that those acts "shall cease". as in, they have.
--- " QUOTE "
Male Mallards will also occasionally chase other males in the same way. (In one documented case, a male Mallard copulated with another male he was chasing after it had been killed when it flew into a glass window.
|
|
7/25/2009, 5:22 pm
|
|
Add a reply
Page 1 2 3 4
Powered by AkBBS 0.9.5b - Link to us
- Blogs
- Hall of Honour
- Chat
Click here to get your own free message board
|
You are not logged in (login)
Board's time is: 11/25/2009, 1:07 am
|
|
|
