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6772FordFseries
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Converting from automatic to Toploader
somarp's thread about converting from a manual to an automatic got me thinking about the reverse. Since this is something that I don't believe has come up for discussion here, I'd like to start a thread about the various options, procedures and parts needed to convert from an 390/C6 to a Toploader or T-10 manual 4-spd.
This question was asked some time back in another Ford forum and the following list was presented as the full list of the parts needed:
quote:
Clutch linkage parts: Clutch Pedal Pad, Brake Pedal, Brake Pedal Pad, Pedal Bushings, Pedal Hanger (if required), Clutch assist spring & bracket, Rod from pedal to equalizer bar, Clutch rod boot at firewall, Clutch equalizer bar (Z bar), Frame side Z bar bracket, Engine side Z bar bracket, Bracket bushings, C clips and felts, Rod from Z bar to clutch fork, Z bar springs,
Bell housing
Engine block plate
Pilot bushing
Resurfaced flywheel
Rebuilt clutch disc
Rebuilt pressure plate
New throw-out bearing
Clutch fork
Clutch fork pivot
Bell housing boot
Bell housing lower cover (if required)
4 speed Toploader transmission
4 speed shifter
Upper shift boot and bezel
Backup light switch
Speedometer Cable and Gear
Transmission Yoke (if necessary)
Transmission Cross Member (if necessary)
Transmission Insulator
Driveshaft (if necessary)
I know nothing of car-type manual 4-spds, so can someone answer a few basic questions:
1. Will the clutch linkage used with a T-18, NP435 or 3-spd would work for a Toploader?
2. Where is the backup light switch located?
3. Where would the shifter be located? Farther back than the truck 4-spd's shifter, I'd assume.
4. What's the length of a Toploader? What driveshaft mods would be necessary to adapt it?
Any thoughts would be appreciated. I'm off to see if I can research this online for a little longer.
---
Keith
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4/27/2004, 9:18 pm
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390Nut
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
Can't help for the most part, but, barring any help that you get here, David Kee
would be the man to talk to for car-type toploaders.
The link goes directly to his "remanned" trannies pages, the second page shows the various car trannies, and the different setups for shifting locations for various models.
As for clutch linkage, I imagine some modification would be necessary, probably at the z-bar/adjuster points.
Only other thing I can think of right off hand would be that the reverse light hook-up may be a different style connector, so grabbing the part of the harness that goes to the switch on the tranny would be a wise move.
and one last edit: I dont think it would be wise to stick a car toploader in a truck, because of the weight of the trucks themselves. Even built well for racing, the T-10's and other toploader style trannies were made to move cars that are a 1/3 to half the weight of an F-series truck. Running 'glass body parts for a racing platform would negate that worry, however
Last edited by 390Nut, 4/27/2004, 11:40 pm
---
Paul--
`69 F100 .030 - 390 4 spd 3.50 gears
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4/27/2004, 11:35 pm
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DuckRyder
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
I would think a galaxie would weigh in the same neghborhood as a truck?
--- Robert
1972 Ford F100 RangerXLT
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4/28/2004, 4:51 am
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390Nut
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
I'm not sure about your truck, unless you put it on a diet, but mine tips the scales at 4970 lbs. with an almost empty fuel tank without me in it. Most of the sixties Galaxies were under 4000, from what I can gather; maybe the fully optioned ones were heavier, but I dont believe it was much heavier.
This is a quote from a website (but most dealing with the Ford TKO will say the same):
*The Ford TKO transmission has the same layout and gear ratio as the 3550 but with stronger 26 spline input shaft and 31 spline output shaft and stronger 3rd gear. It is torque rated to 450ft/lbs.*
Tell any knowledgable, reputable tranny shop that you want to put a TKO in your truck, and I imagine they will either laugh at you or run you off. They more than likely wouldn't gaurantee one if they sold it too you, though.
Built well, maybe, and the newer TKO 500 or 600 trannies (and some others) can handle the weight/torque combination, but, at the price of a new tranny ($1500+ for a new bottom-end 3550 Ford style that wont take the torque) I'll stick with my T-18 
---
Paul--
`69 F100 .030 - 390 4 spd 3.50 gears
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4/28/2004, 11:11 am
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68F250
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
Hi Keith! I'm not much help since I'm an automatic kind of guy but there's one thing here that hasn't been mentioned.
The truck bellhousing is 7/16" deeper than the car bellhousing. This means any FE car manual tranny (toploader included) will have a problem with it's input nose engaging into the pilot shaft.
I have heard of a way around this though. Instead of using an FE tranny, use the small block trannys (toploader included). They all have a longer input nose and it engages perfectly.
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4/28/2004, 1:00 pm
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6772FordFseries
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
I guess what I was looking for in contemplating this swap was having the ratios to enable the shifting to feel more like a car, being able to use all 4 gears and have the ratios compatible with everyday street driving. I'd never thought about the differences in vehicle weight. I figured that since these trannies were used in some racing, they'd be more than stout enough for everyday driving in a truck, and maybe even getting an occasional lead-foot. A friend has an original '63 Galaxie with a tri-power 390 and a 4-spd. The car weighs 3850 pounds, according the the Standard Catalog of American Cars. The same book lists a '69 F100 as weighing only between 3400 and 3500 pounds. I guess I would surmise that what will move that big Galaxie should handle a truck just fine. Granted, it doesn't state how the weights are obtained, as to taking into account the weight of the driver, amount of fuel in the tank, etc, but I'd also have to assume they'd be the same for both vehicles. I'm certainly not disputing your observations as to the truck's weight and concerns about transmission life, but on the surface it appears that there isn't that much of a weight difference between the truck and some other vehicles equipped from the factory with a Toploader.
As for the bellhousing, I would think that since some '67-'68 Mustangs had 390s and 4-spds, just using a transmission setup (including the bellhousing) from one of them would be a bolt-in affair...at least for mating the engine to the tranny?
I will continue to look into this. Thanks for the link, 390Nut.
---
Keith
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4/28/2004, 5:33 pm
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DuckRyder
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
Keith you have more solid numbers for the weights, but the ones I was able to find on line seem to coencide with yours. The book "Super 60's fords" list the weight of the full size fords from 62-69 fron 3500-4055 depending on model and options.
My F100, has a GVWR of 4550, it has a payload of 945 (Even assuming the payload is reduced by options) so the curb weight has to be in the 36-3700 range.
Now I've never weighed it so thats all pretty much conjecture. I just can't imagine an F100 weighing much more than a Galaxie.
At any rate, I imagine if a toploader will stand up to a built 428 in a drag car, I think it would serve for a "street" truck.
Be sure to let us know what you come up with as I've contemplated similar.
--- Robert
1972 Ford F100 RangerXLT
323i.net
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4/28/2004, 5:51 pm
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68F250
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
quote:
6772FordFseries wrote:
As for the bellhousing, I would think that since some '67-'68 Mustangs had 390s and 4-spds, just using a transmission setup (including the bellhousing) from one of them would be a bolt-in affair...at least for mating the engine to the tranny?
Actually, I think the small block toploader would be a better match for a truck because it's a wide ratio with a lower 1st compared to the big block toploader. Plus, the truck bellhousing takes the bigger 11 1/2" clutch compared to the 11" car bell.
(Close ratio) 2.32 1.69 1.29 1.00
(Wide ratio) 2.78 1.93 1.35 1.00
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4/28/2004, 6:40 pm
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6772FordFseries
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
Whoops...forgot to follow up on this in here. FYI: I posted this question to the Ford Tranny Talk messageboard, and 'Paultrans' gave this response:
"I run a Toploader{small input} behind a '70 model ranger with a built '61 390 out of a Starliner. It has been there for 10 years. It sees very little normal driving. The clutch linkage stays the same, the bell housing bolt pattern is the same whether big or small. The shifters pose a problem with a bench seat."
I've sent him an e-mail asking for more details, but haven't heard back yet.
---
Keith
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5/20/2004, 4:46 pm
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FE427TP
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Re: Converting from automatic to Toploader
quote:
390Nut wrote:
Tell any knowledgable, reputable tranny shop that you want to put a TKO in your truck, and I imagine they will either laugh at you or run you off. They more than likely wouldn't gaurantee one if they sold it too you, though.
Built well, maybe, and the newer TKO 500 or 600 trannies (and some others) can handle the weight/torque combination, but, at the price of a new tranny ($1500+ for a new bottom-end 3550 Ford style that wont take the torque) I'll stick with my T-18
wont take the torque? after my NP435 gave out I put in a 390 GT toploader for 6 months or so and then cracked the case rebuilding it (it was from a wrecked vehicle so the crack may have already been there) so I installed a TKO and have been using it daily for 2 years now. I dont know of any tranny
shop that gives a warranty on a TKO. With the toploader the shifter knob on my V-gate came out right near the edge of the bench in neutral so I cut a hole in a automatic tunnel cover to fit it's movement and used that... TKO comes out in just the right spot for me with the buckets I'm using now but we'll see how it fits when I get factory buckets done and installed. Oh yeah the backup light switch didn't work with the toploader that I recall and the speedometer cable it seems like it came in on the passenger side instead of the driver side but it still worked for me. I reused the original 4 speed crossmember and mount, the driveshaft needs attention because the slip yoke will now be in the back of the transmission instead of in the driveshaft and the toploader is longer than the original 4 speeds
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6/12/2004, 4:57 pm
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