CyranoRox
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Rosa Subrosa
I hereby claim the title of Slowest Vixen on the Uptake.
While i did resist the Church of V, I am somewhat fixated on the V of Church, so to speak.
Why roses? By coincidence, I order 'subrosa' in my day job: sending out an investigator to take film secretly.
Prothero, Lilliman, Dr D, and Sutler get roses. Creedy does not. Why not? V denies having anything in common with him except immanent death. V has human nature, and ideal/supernatural nature; therefore, Creedy has neither. What is he? I propose that the Victoria Station fight is, almost on the surface, fought in hell, against demons, not men. Creedy is death, the devil, the spider ["along came a spider"], not a man. No future, no ongoing story, no rose. The most intimate killing, breaking his neck- the only such death, and the only one that happens onscreen. No secret, no rose. No mercy, either, as Lilliman and the disgusting fingerman ask for; no recognition, as with Prothero and Dr D. No commonality at all.
V's roses are a kind of claim - "Mine!" - and Creedy emphatically is not his. They also say "Beloved", a more difficult matter, since it extends even to Sutler; not Creedy. Sutler is human; Creedy is not. Perhaps he has dared to do more than becomes a man - so the second clause of the Scots Play quote points to him, not back to V.
Even Sutler is beloved of V? I think it's possible. It's given "for the only thing you have left", life itself, or humanity. Human nature is the bare qualification for whatever he is giving, and saying, with the rose. They also say "Secret", that is, the fate or judgement of these dead is secret. Of course, to call it secret is to assert that it's there at all, that there is a judgement or fate yet to come.
I take the combination of claiming the dead as beloved, and holding the secret of their future, to be further evidence for the principal subtext and solution of the riddle: V as Christ. Moreover, this makes sense of what was otherwise extraneous, so that the pattern includes more elements and fits tighter.
 , of course.
Apocatastasis Now!
Last edited by CyranoRox, 8/2/2008, 1:31 pm
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8/2/2008, 10:37 am
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Doctor Delia
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
I've had computer problems for the past month, and I thought: Finally I can break the habit (of hanging around the Shadow Gallery) but Cyrano, you've hooked me with this one. Blast!
quote:
Cyrano wrote: Why roses?
According to a couple of books on Christian symbolism in art, the rose symbolizes love, the Virgin Mary, and because of its thorns and sweetness, martyrdom. Jesus holding a rose symbolizes his future Passion. Fine! I think we all can agree on that.
In addition, in ancient Rome, the rose had a funerary connotation. The Rosalia, or celebration of roses, was one of their ceremonies associated with the cult of the dead. An even better calling card for our angel of death! And as you say, the use of an almost extinct variety of rose, the Scarlet Carson, screams "Mine!" and links the killer to only one possible place in the UK, Larkhill.
quote:
Prothero, Lilliman, Dr D, and Sutler get roses. Creedy does not. Why not?
I agree that he doesn't deserve one, but I think this is due to V's conception of himself rather than his conception of Creedy as something subhuman, or at least beneath contempt.
V spends a LOT of time thinking about Creedy. I suspect it's something personal between these two. William Rookwood can barely control his rage when discussing this "spider." V breaks into his greenhouse for a somewhat intimate threatening conversation. V fences with a suit of armor, decapitating his Mondego. And who might Mondego be for V? It can only be Creedy. What their relationship was like before Larkhill, I can only speculate, but I suspect that there are many parallels between "The Count of Monte Cristo" and V's quest for revenge against this one man in particular. The title of the film, "V for Vendetta" could refer to V's somewhat noble vendetta against the corrupt State that created him, but it could also refer to his more base vendetta against this man who apparently "done him wrong."
And as simple revenge is not such a noble pursuit, V has created this complex inner mythology that he uses to diffuse his guilt over such an ignoble emotion. "I'm doing this for the people, for freedom and justice, like Guy Fawlkes!" Geez!
All of V's assassinations are carried out without much emotion on his part; as the Klingons say, "Revenge is a dish that is best served cold." The roses are part of the mythology. V sees himself as a quasi-religious figure, meting out justice, like the avenging angel that Weaving conceives him to be. The roses reinforce this conception of himself.
But killing Creedy is another matter; this is a hot murder. Killing another man with his bare hands, face to face, it's almost sexual! There is no way V can morally justify this killing to himself because he seems to take so much pleasure in it. Tilting his head ever so slightly to the side, with that grin on his face, as he watches Creedy struggle for a few moments. It is kind of sadistic, no?
But Evey saw right through him when she said earlier, "So that's what all this is about. you're getting back at them for what they did to her. And to you." Yes, and like Lilliman's "last little joy," this is V's reward, his personal revenge.
With the killing over, the blood (and V's passion) draining away from him, he's spent. He can no longer have any illusions about himself. And he confesses as much to Evey. His ploy was to kill himself as well as Creedy and he refuses any aid from her to save his life. In death, though, he is surrounded by a garland of Scarlet Carsons. He may not have been able to forgive himself, but she does.
quote:
Cyrano adds: Even Sutler is beloved of V? I think it's possible. It's given "for the only thing you have left", life itself, or humanity.
Why Sutler gets a rose is kind of problematic. We've discussed before that of all of the people targeted for assassination, Sutler has the least personal connection with V. Yes, because of Norsefire, we have a totalitarian state, but this process started long before Norsefire, and before the political rise of Adam Sutler. Sutler was a member of the Conservative Party, and it was under their rule that the fascist state, ethnic cleansing, Larkhill, and the St. Mary's virus attacks take place. Norsefire simply made all the the emergency reclamation powers a formal permanent part of the government, and stifled any criticism of this state of affairs.
I agree that V has some compassion for Sutler, but very little, and none whatsoever for Creedy.
Also as you say, the rose marks this kill as "MINE." Imagine trying to figure out what happened at the crime scene later on. Sutler does have a bullet in the head from Creedy's gun. Not exactly V's modus operendi but the rose implicates him for sure.
Last edited by Doctor Delia, 8/3/2008, 1:25 pm
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8/3/2008, 1:17 pm
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friendlysolarflare
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
It's good to see you both again, I miss you guys and our time together in London 
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8/3/2008, 1:28 pm
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Doctor Delia
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
I miss you too, Flare. Thanks for keeping the flame alive on this site. I guess there really is no reason to "kick the habit." So maybe now that I have a new computer, I'll continue to hang around for a while!
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8/3/2008, 1:47 pm
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friendlysolarflare
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
some of us still hang out here, it would be nice if you'd join in from time to time, if you have the time for it 
BTW I'm going to meet ButMad & F4E in London again - this November  (not the 5th though)
Last edited by friendlysolarflare, 8/3/2008, 2:17 pm
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8/3/2008, 2:11 pm
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Doctor Delia
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
I'm looking forward to seeing your photos of the trip. I'm sure they'll be brilliant, as usual.
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8/4/2008, 3:32 am
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friendlysolarflare
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
Thanks
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8/4/2008, 4:40 am
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freedom4ever
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
*Pulls up a chair and gets comfy*
Cyrano and Doctor D, please continue...  As always, your discussion is a delight.
 Flare! Looking forward to seeing you in November! 
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8/4/2008, 8:42 am
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friendlysolarflare
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
quote:
freedom4ever wrote:
Cyrano and Doctor D, please continue... As always, your discussion is a delight.
What F4E said!!
quote:
Flare! Looking forward to seeing you in November!
 it is November yet? 
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8/4/2008, 8:55 am
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CyranoRox
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Re: Rosa Subrosa
{{{{Flare!}}}}
{{{{Dr D!}}}}
{{{{F4E}}}}
My energy is low lately, but I am warmed and cheered by your replies. I hope to be back with more, as I once said more than two years ago....
Dr D, what you say hangs together, but I don't fully grant your supposition that V is puffing a base vengeance into a pretend-noble project. Who, you know, is but the form following the function of What, and What he does at the end does have to be factored in to Who he might be, and I don't see how your version accounts for it. Besides, it is an added level of dramatic irony for him to think he is pretending to be that which, in death, the story reveals he really was. That is, you can't take his inferred self-assessement as the deepest truth; he can no longer remember who he is or where he is from. That he might pretend to the truth - and he was reading The Golden Bough - just intensifies the pleasure
Work with play the happy differentiation!
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9/2/2008, 9:27 pm
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