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CyranoRox
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Retitled: Identity, actor and mask
When i was young and single I used to invite my crowd after a lecture or concert to my place for talk, bohmemian comforts, drinks, and local goodies [this was Berkeley, known to locals for food] sprawled on my shabby couches and old armchairs. Lawful wedded lord and myself would do so now...
*offers drinks, sweets and savories, in assorted mismatched glasses, plates and saucers*
*opens the good brandy*
Movie people, the invitation includes you too.
Comfortable? Because we are going to do the math, and if this ends where I think it will return some surprizing conclusions about identity, the unconscious, and the movie.
V makes the general statement that
Who = F(What) [Butmad kindly supplied the exact line below]
[remember y = F(x) from algebra?]
so plugging in the givens
V= F(a man in a mask)
This claim entirely challenges the hermaneutics of suspicion, the most familiar form of which is the structure of the unconscious [Phil, be cool. I'm not talking about the real world]. If the true self is exactly equal to the apparent self, there is no prior, hidden, more-valid self to which to refer. Or another angle- the Heisenberg uncertainty principle applied to identity: the act of analysis --removing the mask--always fails, because the object is annihilated in the process of observation
It's a peculiar proposition and on reflection I'm not sure if I agree. It's a grand reversal and representation of the limit of an idea, presented in the concrete, in the mode of a nocturne: identity is contingent on biography, or who you are is affected by what you are doing. But now the idea is examined as an absolute, with a literal and physical object, the mask.
If we take V's statement at pure face value, he is claiming that under the mask is not his true self, nor no self, but actually some other self. Change the what, and you necessarily change the who. Pull off the mask, and you don't have V's true identity [within the narrative], you have another person entirely. The statement is paradoxical in other ways too; for one thing it collapses the distinction between actor and character [from outside anyway], both/either say 'i am a man in a mask' .
V isn't a crazy person, in his terms, because the metaphysics that support the [modern, scientific] meaning of crazy are simply excluded. No claims about psychosis, sociopathology, etc can be maintained. By this I don't mean that he has no memory, motives in the older sense, or normal mental apparatus in the pre-scientific sense; I mean that there is nothing within him that is truer than the self as presented, this last being, afaik, one of the primary claims of the Freudians and their descendants.
The movie is completely consistent with this; this is why Evey kisses the mask instead of insisting that it come off. i think she accepts his metaphysic of identity.
If you did believe it, you would be in an extremely vulnerable position; you can be destroyed by a sufficiently pervasive change in your narrative, your 'what'. An armed and defensive attitude would be natural; the self needs a castle of refuge[not defense mechanisms, actual defense]. OTOH, change can be abrupt and renewal possible; thus Evey does really change into another person, not as a psychological change, but an ontological one. A change of being, not just of thinking.
Did it occur to you how extremely odd it is for V to start a discussion [not that Evey picked it up] about the basis of identity, on a wet street strewn with corpses of his own making, in a voice to make smoke lament its deficiency of grace, with a girl he just met, who might not care at all for philosophy?
We like that kind of thing as much as we dare admit, but there are, what, fifty of us?
*adds armchairs, pulls more goodies from oven, gets real special old bottle from back of cabinet*
I still wonder how and why you, movie people, made a movie that so exactly aligns with my head and the furnishings thereof.
Last edited by CyranoRox, 7/29/2006, 5:22 pm
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6/4/2006, 3:46 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
quote:
CyranoRox wrote:
Who = F(What) "Who is a function of What" Correct my quoting, you who have the script- this is from memory
I do not "have the script," not in a physical sense, but I have a mental script from too many viewings and an already odd ability to remember lines (and a "detail-oriented" personality that demands I remember precise wordings).
So, V's line: "Who? Who is but the form following the function of what. And what I am is a man in a mask."
quote:
If we take V's statement at pure face value, he is claiming that under the mask is not his true self, nor no self, but actually some other self.
As V himself says when Evey attempts to remove the mask, "There is a face beneath this mask, but it's not me. I am no more that face than I am the muscles beneath it, or the bones beneath them."
Other than my quoting to aid or comment, I can't think of anything to reply to your post re: algebra and metaphysicality. 
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6/4/2006, 8:08 pm
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Calypso7
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
quote:
CyranoRox wrote:
The movie is completely consistent with this; this is why Evey kisses the mask instead of insisting that it come off. i think she accepts his metaphysic of identity.
If you did believe it, you would be in an extremely vulnerable position; you can be destroyed by a sufficiently pervasive change in your narrative, your 'what'. An armed and defensive attitude would be natural; the self needs a castle of refuge[not defense mechanisms, actual defense].
BUT... V assumes another guise/mask altogether when he becomes Rookwood to meet with Finch. As when he assumes the interrogator role. This suggests to me that there's less vulnerability, more freedom, and more room for dynamic play in his sense of self and identity than your post implies. He's a consummate actor and he knows it. The V mask and identity may be the primary one, the one he's currently most invested in (just as Mr. HW is), but I wonder how many other masks and costumes he has squirreled away in one of those vaults? He must assume some other "normal" guises when he goes out, e.g., to send off the Guy Fawkes masks via the UPS trucks, buy his eggs (rather amusing to imagine V in full costume in line at the grocery store), or visits Evey's flat to select for her a few changes of clothing and (yes) underwear. It would be wasteful, overly dramatic, and surely unecessary for all these mundane tasks to be performed in full costume complete with boots, hats, and knives.
What I'm working my way toward saying here is that I personally find the figure behind V more appealing when I believe that he knows and realizes that Vendetta V is (merely) the current mask. I don't think he really feels that that V character is "all" he is, that he is as V does. This makes it even more tragic that all Evey (and we) can know and love and kiss is the V guise. Because it remains true, as you point out, that there are almost insuperable defensive buttresses surrounding that V persona.
None of this touches your points about why he's not crazy, I agree with you about that.
quote:
Did it occur to you how extremely odd it is for V to start a discussion [not that Evey picked it up] about the basis of identity, on a wet street strewn with corpses of his own making, in a voice to make smoke lament its deficiency of grace, with a girl he just met, who might not care at all for philosophy?
Yes, it's preposterous of him to launch into the metaphysical stuff upon encountering this pretty young thing on the streets... He's probably entertaining himself with his usual whimsy (he's used to talking to suits of armor, remember) by trying it on with her. I find her response quite disappointing and if I were V, I woudn't have put much hope in her (just goes to show he's like every other guy, taken in by a pretty face). Or maybe he's simply dying to have someone watch his fireworks with him, and (to give him credit) begins his interest in her only later when she, surprisingly, assists him at the TV station.
Thanks for the snacks, I'll have to pass on the brandy since I'm in AA  , but perhaps you have some bubbly water for the teetotalers in the crowd.
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6/4/2006, 9:17 pm
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NickyTea
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
If we were talking stricktly of the graphic novel you would be 100 percent on the level...
however, the film incorperates a level of change in V that needs to be recodnized. He changes in the sense of his failure/what he gained from evey.
In the GN, V never faulters, invites doubt, or indicates that he is anything but the symbol he presents. The film shows us a human element which comes through his connection with evey. She affects him just as much as he does her. She is given much more purpose, as far as I'm concerned.
She reminded him of humanity....the very thing he is saving. She showed him his "one inch."
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6/4/2006, 10:47 pm
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Willow7302
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
quote:
CR:
there is nothing within him that is truer than the self as presented
Here is the power of V - his complete personhood - not hiding, but clear and unequivocal, magnificent. What I aspire to, I think.
quote:
In the GN, V never faulters, invites doubt, or indicates that he is anything but the symbol he presents. The film shows us a human element which comes through his connection with evey. She affects him just as much as he does her.
hmmm, I do appreciate the film Evey, leaps and bounds beyond the confused and poorly-drawn (graphically and charcter-wise) GN Evey.
In addition, herein comes the Romantic that sings to so many of us: not just the attraction and affection between V & EV, but the richness of the dance they do, transforming one another. Indeed V has, in his isolatated single-mindedness missed out on the warm expereince of closeness with living beings, even as he fights for everyone to have their "one inch."
ah, quite delicious, CR. Blessings.
---
V: "There's no certainty - only opportunity."
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6/5/2006, 11:12 am
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CyranoRox
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
Calypso7 wrote: quote:
V assumes another guise/mask altogether when he becomes Rookwood to meet with Finch. As when he assumes the interrogator role. This suggests to me that there's less vulnerability, more freedom, and more room for dynamic play in his sense of self and identity than your post implies. He's a consummate actor and he knows it. The V mask and identity may be the primary one, the one he's currently most invested in (just as Mr. HW is), but I wonder how many other masks and costumes he has squirreled away in one of those vaults? He must assume some other "normal" guises when he goes out, ..... It would be wasteful, overly dramatic, and surely unecessary for all these mundane tasks to be performed in full costume complete with boots, hats, and knives.
I completely agree. I was looking at the implications of the speech. On my reading, all the personae are still 'a man in a mask', as opposed to the mask, though the interrogator appearance messes with this reading a little. Now you mention it, though, the interrogator getup is the most likely candidate for shopping trips - no one is going to argue with that uniform no matter what he's buying.
Or you could say that V has the freedom to act roles, as anyone does though he knows it and most don't, but that the other masks and roles are all temporary, as it were masks on top of the Mask.
And I'd give you tea and oranges that come all the way from China...
NickyTea wrote quote:
She affects him just as much as he does her
*nod*nod*nod*, as Melinda puts it.
The syllogistic view is where he starts, with hard edges and certainties; a good deal of the pleasure is in seeing the equations yield to embraces.
All I have said is provisional; as saith the poet, 'how do I know what I think until I hear what I have to say?'
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6/5/2006, 8:46 pm
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Tamlin
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
(gn spoiler, for those who haven't read it)
Hi Nick. :) I agree the film gives her more purpose in general...but in the graphic novel, she puts on the mask and more blatantly takes on the persona of V. So there's definitely purpose there! It's very much alluded to in the film, taking on V's persona, though.
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6/6/2006, 4:52 pm
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CyranoRox
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
quote:
BUT... V assumes another guise/mask altogether when he becomes Rookwood to meet with Finch. As when he assumes the interrogator role. This suggests to me that there's less vulnerability, more freedom, and more room for dynamic play in his sense of self and identity than your post implies. He's a consummate actor and he knows it. The V mask and identity may be the primary one, the one he's currently most invested in (just as Mr. HW is), but I wonder how many other masks and costumes he has squirreled away in one of those vaults?
[snip]
What I'm working my way toward saying here is that I personally find the figure behind V more appealing when I believe that he knows and realizes that Vendetta V is (merely) the current mask. I don't think he really feels that that V character is "all" he is, that he is as V does. This makes it even more tragic that all Evey (and we) can know and love and kiss is the V guise. Because it remains true, as you point out, that there are almost insuperable defensive buttresses surrounding that V persona.
I like your thinking, and the post is good writing. I'm going to ramble and explore a contradictory point of view, but that doesn't mean I think you're wrong;I'm just looking for the most paradoxical reading it will support.
V is a variable quantity; sometimes there's too few presences and sometimes too many.
A contrast helps: there is Evey and there is Ms Portman; no confusion, no weirdness, until she gets the haircut. That is a momentary 'collapse' of actor and character; both lose their hair. but for the most part the normal relationships are working.
V is constructed quite differently. i'm delighted with the depth of the questions about identity raised.
the layers; V proper; V's other roles, primarily Rookwood, which are in this reading added to, not insted of, V proper; the actor; and another person hinted at, denied, hidden, posited: a middle term, the nameless character who is playing V in the story.[ Maybe the prison guys, too, though the evidence is against it, because Evey does not later acknowledge that any of the prison people is V]
So in saying 'I am a man in a mask' all the layers collapse and there are too few people; just for an instant, there is just the actor in the mask; the two middle terms disappear.
Too many is of course the mirror smashing; but also the
the Gurdjieff students i know [disclaimer I have a distaste for these and most esoteric clubs] would jump on this reading of V as a demonstration of their ideal - the constructed self replacing, even trampling, the ordinary self. It half fits, half doesnt. As if, everything ratcheted up a level, so V is the person, of whom the hidden person is the unconscious- though also conscious.
He's so insistent on concealing the hidden person. In some ways it's his rival, competing to speak.
characters playing their own secondary characters we've seen; something is different here but hard to pin down. I'm not expressing this clearly tonight and I'll probably be editing at midnight.
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6/14/2006, 8:36 pm
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Venturous
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
quote:
...the constructed self replacing, even trampling, the ordinary self. It half fits, half doesnt.
this fits my reading of the Viola quote: "be my aid, and ...haply shall become the form of my intent." This, a particular interest to me, as I am always on some mission to transform myself. hmmmm 
quote:
As if, everything ratcheted up a level, so V is the person, of whom the hidden person is the unconscious- though also conscious.
Ah, we are whom we have been, and we are who we will ourselves to be, yet not one without the other.
quote:
He's so insistent on concealing the hidden person. In some ways it's his rival, competing to speak.
And more -- our layers inform us, shadow us, and clamour for air, regardless our "intent."
form, noun "the visible shape or configuration of a thing; the essential nature of a species or thing; a temporary structure for holding fresh concrete while it sets."
---  "There is no certainty, only opportunity." -- V
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6/21/2006, 9:13 pm
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CyranoRox
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Re: Identity, algebra and the anti-esoteric.
Further ramblings on identity and characters....
I begin to think the idea of making V an actor is fundamental to the power and depth of the character, and from there, the movie. IIrc, that has to be one of the last big decisions, post-Purefoy, who was certainly playing a very different character in the same costume, which can be seen just in the way he breathes--quite ordinarily.
Much discussion of this point treated it as superficial, but the first big speeches would make no sense at all otherwise. No actor, no alliteration speech. It's offered as, among other things, a proof of what he says he is. The graph, as it were, of the function.....
If an actor, how good? answer: as good as what we see. Good enough? The thing is a catalogue of actorly impossibilities, a masterpiece in the technical sense of a display of mastery of all the aspects of a craft . V isn't just an actor, he's a superb actor. As good as the man playing him, by mere tautology. Can you take this away and still have anything like the V we have? No, because the special wierdness here is that, because the character is an actor, he 'has' the abilities of the man playing him. Something like this is also true, of course, where a character is a musician or dancer-- but then they better cast someone who can play or dance, and there is a little more distance. Fred Astaire's roles dance just like Fred Astaire, but somehow that doesn't seem like a paradox.
Yes, Rookwood is a flimsy disguise-- anyone can see that it's a put-on. But did you notice it was in the credits? probably had to be. just because you can see it's a disguise doen't mean you can see through it. V is showing off for the cops, knowing that they will eventually catch on and then appreciate the performance, as indeed Finch does.
rambling a little, i wonder if they were thinking of Tourette's? reading Oliver Sacks? A Touretter often has lightning reflexes, astonishing abilty at mimicry [=other voices & accents], and occasionally a brilliant but runaway kind of speech. Also often a slightly coque-eyed take on reality. A fully conquered and integrated Tourettes might be a partial model for that aspect of V.
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7/2/2006, 3:01 pm
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