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pwsull
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Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Okay ladies (and as MelindaKitty refers to us, the occasional “affirmative action Y Chromosome”), I am going to go out on a limb and post this subject here where I think it will find a more intelligent discussion than it would at IMDb. When Leda recruited me from the IMDb boards to join this group, I believe it was because of my intelligence, curiosity, and open-mindedness. Perusing these pages, however I do frequently feel like a very out of place straight guy at an estrogen charged “slumber party” (again MelindaKitty’s term), but I hope you will join me for a minute in a more abstract discussion about an aspect of romance and sex that involves more than lusty expressions of desire for V. (My passion for V is much more as a romantic and idealized expression of self rather than as an object of romantic or sexual love. I do however have a bit of a thing for Evey who grows from fearful and dependent at the beginning of the film to a woman of great purpose, power, determination, beauty and sexiness by the closing credits.) Hopefully as a “newbie” I have not misread the readiness of the membership for something of this type. (And JAD…please don’t “banish” me, just take me aside, delete my post and give me a stern talking to if necessary )
The film hit me right in the face with this topic, much as it did with its “cautionary tale” theme which is embodied in this now often quoted phrase attributed to Benjamin Franklin: “The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.”
So, preamble completed, on with the topic.
I do not think I have seen anywhere discussed the obvious sado-masochistic relationship theme this film parades in front of us. No, before you get all alarmed and flustered, I am not talking about all that whips and leather fetishism (although definitely not my thing, it is interesting that it clearly is Larry Wachowski’s; see the article in Rolling Stone: The Mystery of Larry Wachowski . No, rather I am talking about the more day to day life, relationship issues of dominance and submission, cruelty and victimization, abuser and abused. I am talking about the relationship dynamics presented so powerfully in the dramas of Pinter and Albee (and most memorably in Mike Nichols screen adaptation of Albee’s Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf? .)
So, what about V and Evey? Here we have a man terribly abused (tortured, de-humanized, experimented upon) who none the less becomes an abuser himself, albeit with an apparently noble purpose (the education and emotional “rebirth” of Evey). V not only kidnaps Evey, but he also anonymously, physically and emotionally abuses and tortures her. And what we may ask is romantic and sexual about that to those of us who are not into the whole S & M thing? V’s history at Lark Hill, and his obvious torment over what he has done to Evey help us empathize with him, but why do I still like and identify with this psychopath, and why do you ladies still lust after him? Disturbing as those scenes are, they are among the most moving, powerful, and important in the movie, and as many other aspects of this film do, they raise more questions than they do provide answers.
And so ladies (and the occasional stray gentleman), “Verily, this vichyssoise of verbiage veers most verbose so let me simply add that it's my very good honor to”… await your thoughts… “and you may call me”… P.
Last edited by pwsull, 4/1/2007, 11:26 am
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"Perily, this pichyssoise of perbiage peers most perbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me"...... P |
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5/13/2006, 12:03 pm
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Sultana
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
I'll have to think on your question...because I'm still not too sure why I adore V, even after the tortue--or why I've come to terms with what he did, and still see it as okay...
Perhaps part of it is me rationalizing that this is nothing more than fiction, it was a GN and in a GN world, this type of thing is more acceptable. If was real, I'd have a huge problem with it, and would not like V at all.
but I just read that article on Larry Wachowski. I had heard things here and there about his BSDM fetish, but wow. That is quite a story. Makes some sense, now, about what happened to the last two Matrix movies, and some of the choices within those movies--ie relationships, costumes, sets, etc. And it totally makes sense why the brothers wish to stay cloistered off from H-wood.
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5/13/2006, 2:56 pm
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CyranoRox
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Are you familar with Jacobean drama? Just noticed on another thread that HW had the lead in a production of The White Devil, by Webster. Power, dominance, self-control, an unbreakable personal self-presentation, and a willingness to use others are central; that this always leads to disaster is not avoided. Romantic drama, in contrast, is intensely interested in the opening of the closed heart, the repentance of the cruel. Guy Fawkes is from that era, Monte Cristo from the other, and V is both, and is aware of the inherent problems as i read it.
Part of the point seems to be to confront current ideas about everything- politics, acting [so there! to all those handsome actors with dreary voices and no grace], and modern ideas about kindeness and cruelty. A Renascence man means more than a man of diverse talents- it also implies a certain hard edge of ruthlessness that has become repugnant. As well it should, in real life.
Ends and means are on the table. There are a couple of moments where V risks everything; with the bomb, and with Evey: the movie does not give a clear sense of what he would have done had she broken.
Given the odd and intense enjambement [feel free to actually picture legs] of the audience into that relationship [as i explained on another post] it does play on the nerve of masochism. But not too far. Evey has no broken skin, she has not been drugged, and I think we are to conclude that she was throughly scared, but not damaged. Possibly that is not what would have happened in the real world.
Let alone the issue of transference. Cruel though it looks as it goes by, you can read the capture sequence as successful rough-house therapy. Somewhere in that pile of books there must have been some Erickson; double-binds and and hypnotic tricks of language appear here and there, but concentrated in the scene where Evey walks out into the gallery. And in that voice....
Should we like it? one of the key questions for the whole project: at what point does a cruel streak become acceptable, if sweetened almost unbearably by the erotic? Or if the man repents of the cruelty? If a good end is actually gained?
BTW, I did not notice any whips.
I am I, and you may call me you.
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5/13/2006, 3:11 pm
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moofv
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
I feel you are reaching quite far to arrive at the conclusion that either Evey or V are getting any pleasure or sexual satisfaction from the ordeal in the "prison".
I took it at face value that he wanted to help Evey to not be afraid of anything any more.
There are many places in the movie where it seems V is arranging for Evey to gain experience that will help her to be one of the leaders of whatever movement comes to pass when V completes his mission on November 5th, or failing his mission Evey has been given some help toward taking V's place in rallying the masses to revolt.
I also take V at his word when he says the only thing he did not plan on was falling in Love with Evey. I thought the scene at the TV station where Evey "saves" V was orcastrated by V to insure that Evey would show V that he had not misjuged her. Do you really think that officer had a chance alone against V.
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5/13/2006, 6:05 pm
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CyranoRox
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
I see that I was unclear. The movie plays on the nerve of masochism; not the torture sequence.
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5/13/2006, 6:34 pm
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Willow7302
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
thank you for bringing this up.
I have been troubled, challenged by this aspect of V & aEvey's relationship, and by our LSG devotion to our beloved V.
Although I have indulged in fantasies of masochism and dominance/submission, in my actual life I am pretty fanatical about choice, self determinism and consent. what has tormented me about V is the kidnapping, the lack of consent. I understand what he did. I am not sure I can condone it. what gets me off the hook is that this is fiction.
but, those of us who's hearts beat fast at thoughts of V... let's fess up. to some extent his dominance is an incredible turn-on.
I was facinated by the Larry Wachowski story, and I see seeds of his passion and expereince in all the Matrix movies, as well as Bound (great movie -- dont miss it!).
But, I have always been drawn to androgeny, I love sweet pretty men and strong, independant women, and identify as bi.
Disturbing? yes. Intriguing? OK. Maybe sexuality has to include the edgy, the mysterious?
Back to our riveting V... he is so clear as to his priorities. He is determined to turn his nightmare into transformation, and he beleives he knows what is right for Evey.
Do we similarly long for the strong hand of transformation? A mentor, teahcer , master to challenge us beyond our limits?
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5/13/2006, 9:21 pm
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krydiam
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
V did not kidnapped EvE. If he just leaved her at
the tv station, she would be dead. or V compromissed.
about the torture and so on...that is still a new
way of getting people to feel reality. disturbing,
I myself I´m trying to understand the "why" of it.
It´s kind of "see for yourself". get though... be free?
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5/13/2006, 9:59 pm
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V Dazzled
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
quote:
krydiam wrote:
V did not kidnapped EvE. If he just leaved her at
the tv station, she would be dead. or V compromissed.
I think the kidnapping that's referred to is when V snatches Evey by the gate outside of Gordon's house, right after Evey escapes through the second-story window. Remember when he says "Gotcha!"? (very un-V-like  )
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5/13/2006, 10:04 pm
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eVilpoptart
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
quote:
pwsull wrote:
I am talking about the relationship dynamics presented so powerfully in the dramas of Pinter and Albee (and most memorably in Mike Nichols screen adaptation of Albee’s Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf?
Hey, he said my last name xxD
((yes yes, I am related to Harold Pinter. xD))
Last edited by eVilpoptart, 5/14/2006, 7:52 am
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5/14/2006, 7:47 am
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pwsull
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
This is SO good! All of your responses to my post are formidable! And I must say CyranoRox I suspect I will be conceding many a point to your encyclopedic knowledge and incisive analysis. My God, talk about “Renaissance Persons”! Is there a field you are not knowledgeable about? Music, drama (Jacobean versus Romantic): these are not areas I am expert in, but I suspect we share a common interest in movies, la langue francaise (“enjambement”, “juissance”), and the social sciences. You refer to Milton Erickson, a pioneer in hypno and “brief” psychotherapies. I myself am more a student of psychoanalytic Object Relations Theory and come at my analyses of V, Evey and their relationship from that perspective. One of my mentors taught a family/couples therapy seminar on the dynamics of the sado-masochistic relationship using Edward Albee’s plays to dramatize his points, and V4V got me thinking about that again. But I digress into esoterica here, and will return to the discussion at hand.
First, a couple of the responses went astray of my intent, so let me clarify what I was talking about. Again, I am not talking about the sexual fetish of sado-masochism (all that leather, whips, bondage, dominance, and submission stuff that is for some sexually fulfilling), but rather a more subtle dynamic that occurs in some everyday relationships, and involves emotional comfort and closeness through cruelty (watch Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf? for a good example of this in its extreme).
So, Sultana wrote:
quote:
Perhaps part of it is me rationalizing that this is nothing more than fiction, it was a GN and in a GN world, this type of thing is more acceptable. If was real, I'd have a huge problem with it, and would not like V at all.
Yes, V is a fictional character, and as such is created to engage us and draw us in to a drama. What I think is fascinating about his “dramatis personae” is that while he is presented as an admirable character (heroic, tragic, romantic, and physically and intellectually very sexy), he is also a pretty scary guy to get involved with. The rather insane giggle at the end of his self-introduction let’s us know he is a bit “touched”; then his single minded, cold and dispassionate approach to toppling an admittedly evil and corrupt regime via murder and detailed manipulation of an entire population. We can be sure that “The Little Girl” is not the only innocent who is sacrificed by V’s plan.
Sultana goes on to say:
quote:
but I just read that article on Larry Wachowski. I had heard things here and there about his BSDM fetish, but wow. That is quite a story. Makes some sense, now, about what happened to the last two Matrix movies, and some of the choices within those movies--ie relationships, costumes, sets, etc. And it totally makes sense why the brothers wish to stay cloistered off from H-wood.
And I agree…I had exactly the same thoughts. It made perfect sense out of where the two Matrix sequels veered off to after the brilliant first chapter…and certainly shed some light on all that stylized leather!
And CyranoRox wrote:
quote:
Part of the point seems to be to confront current ideas about everything- politics, acting [so there! to all those handsome actors with dreary voices and no grace], and modern ideas about kindeness and cruelty.
Yes CR, I agree that the whole point seems to be to shake up the satus quo of things and get everyone talking and thinking….I am just continuously blown away by what a GREAT movie this is!
And then CR further says:
quote:
Given the odd and intense enjambement [feel free to actually picture legs] of the audience into that relationship [as i explained on another post] it does play on the nerve of masochism. But not too far. Evey has no broken skin, she has not been drugged, and I think we are to conclude that she was throughly scared, but not damaged. Possibly that is not what would have happened in the real world.
But here is where I disagree a bit. True V does not cause Evey any permanent physical harm, but the psychological harm he does to her is pretty intense. It works as a plot device which brings Evey to “enlightenment”, and we feel V’s pain in the torture’s aftermath, but in the real world, after an experience like that, anyone would be a very damaged Post Traumatic Stress Disorder mess. I think it goes a little beyond “successful rough house therapy”. No I think we are into a bit of somewhat subliminal S-M eroticism here (perhaps as Larry Wachowski intended).
Willow 7302 wrote:
quote:
Although I have indulged in fantasies of masochism and dominance/submission, in my actual life I am pretty fanatical about choice, self determinism and consent. what has tormented me about V is the kidnapping, the lack of consent. I understand what he did. I am not sure I can condone it. what gets me off the hook is that this is fiction.
but, those of us who's hearts beat fast at thoughts of V... let's fess up. to some extent his dominance is an incredible turn-on.
Disturbing? yes. Intriguing? OK. Maybe sexuality has to include the edgy, the mysterious?
Do we similarly long for the strong hand of transformation? A mentor, teahcer , master to challenge us beyond our limits?
Yep, my point exactly! This movie takes us into some pretty interesting places…politically, socially, romantically, and yes, even though everything on screen is platonic, sexually.
---
"Perily, this pichyssoise of perbiage peers most perbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me"...... P |
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5/14/2006, 10:55 am
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