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Vienna7
Captain Viennaway
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
quote:
Doctor Delia wrote:
David Lloyd and Alan Moore were very, very clever men!
Ohhh yeah! And I think more the latter than the former, but my admiration for Moore is no secret to anyone on this board. That he sprinkled a dose of magick onto V for Vendetta, along with his other works (which reminds me that I HAVE to eventually get Lost Girls) is obvious to me and others who are around around such folks (although Moore's in a league of his own). Just check out the last paragraph of this interview:
http://www.technoccult.com/archives/2007/05/14/alan-moore-interview-on-art-and-the-occult-in-arthur-magazine/
Also, here's another one on magick and writing:
http://www.technoccult.com/archives/2005/02/16/alan-moore-on-writing-and-magick/
Okay, sorry to get off on a bit of a tangent...I'll quit my Moore worship now... 
Last edited by Vienna7, 5/28/2007, 9:21 pm
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In honor of KaTie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beauty is just the beginning of a terror we can only just barely endure,
and we admire it so because it calmly disdains to destroy us.
Every angel is terrible. (Rilke's elegy)
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5/28/2007, 9:19 pm
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MelindaKitty
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
The Lost Girls is porno using literary figures for which he has no permission?
Ew.
*reads synopses*
Ew more.
I don't think I could ever look forward to reading this.
Moore's misogyny in GN V4V was quite plenty. Every woman was a whore, a sex object, underage, abused, or a total **** *****. If it weren't for Lloyd's truly visionary artwork, the thing would be intolerable.
GN V4V is Moore's thinly-disguised - and very consciously done, judging by his foreword - diatribe against Britain and how much he HATES his homeland. His venom is obvious, as is the weak third act, in which several key players are offed in very anticlimactic ways and Evey - after another very victim-y moment - takes over the revolution in her own way.
I didn't buy it. I didn't like it. The movie was better. At least there, V had SOME redeeming qualities, there were fewer pointless subplots, and I didn't want to *****-slap the entire cast.
The movie was flawed? Hell, yeah. But it obviously made a huge impact on those of us who "got" it.
This has turned into a rant with no small amount of venom, but Moore pissed me off by turning his back - sight unseen - on the only DECENT adaptation of his work and then pissed me off more by stealing iconic FEMALE CHILD characters from literature and turning them into pornographic figures. I'd refrain from using the word "pornographic", but that's the one Moore himself used.
Yes, I should theoretically read the work before damning it. I don't want to. Ew.
No, I don't think the work should be banned because I don't believe in censorship. I also question the motives of the author for writing it in the first place. Sexual exploration? Feel free. But make up your own characters instead of saying **** you to the estates of the authors who created these girls.
Moreover, I'm not entirely sure how his diatribe on religion and words-as-magic relates to GN V4V.
I'm gonna stop now. Apparently, that really pissed me off.
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5/28/2007, 9:50 pm
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pwsull
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Alright!
Kitty with claws!
Methinks I will have to familiarize myself with the referenced Moore works, but on V4V GN versus FILM, I could not agree with you more.
I know Moore hated what the Wachowskis and McTeigue did with his little gothic/dystopian "masterpiece", but frankly I feel they took the very best of GN V4V's disturbing but somewhat two dimensional characters and story elements and improved them tenfold with depth, and breadth, and pathos, and psychological complexity, and yes romance (perhaps tinged with those "disturbing themes of sado-masochism?")
It is not often that I feel a movie surpasses its novel source material, but in this case it most definitely does.
I'll get under the chair with the Kitty now...
Last edited by pwsull, 5/29/2007, 3:50 pm
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5/29/2007, 3:32 pm
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CyranoRox
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
In cahoots with the Kitty and PW!
Ew!
I only looked at GN-V after the movie, and saw no attraction. M-puss, I'll take your word; the analysis is lucid and cogent.
As for Magick, imho it's mainly fantasy, with the possibility of drift into what is ignoble, base, or dangerous.
Alice in porn?!?!? Dodgson may have had buried longings, but he never never made sexual advances or involved her in adult/child sexuality. The man who indulges such fantasies is working hard not to be any friend of mine.
Work with play the happy differentiation! 
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5/29/2007, 6:18 pm
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Venturous
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Ven confesses: I bought Lost Girls. It is wicked, uninhibited, an excuse for lots of very explicit pictures, lovingly rendered, of the varieties of sexual expereince, bidden and unbidden. If the illustrator wasn't female, I wouldn't have been able to give it any credence. Gebbie's style is soft and lovely as a children's book illustrator's, adding to the beautiful but creepy feel.
Moore no doubt takes fiendish delight in 'evolving' these characters into grown women with erotic lives, and providing ample opportunity to offend and transgress in the process. There is a subplot about the hotelier's precious pornographic book that depicts an incestuous family, quite gleefully. "I do believe that is the dirtiest story I have ever heard!" exclaims Dorothy.
I wanted to see what Moore was up to now, and I found the book (three books, actually) alluring and at times arousing. The three heroines each tell their story of sexual awakening and evolution, with flashbacks vividly illustrated like dreams and flights of fantasy.
My verdict? Beautiful and disturbing, and I sure as hell wouldn't leave it where anyone under the age of consent could get a look at it.
---  "There is no certainty, only opportunity." -- V
Venturous on IJ
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5/29/2007, 7:23 pm
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Tamlin
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Honestly, I *do* want to get down to you and take a look at it, Ven.
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5/29/2007, 7:28 pm
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pwsull
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Hmmmmmmmmm.
Moore is turning us on our heads again.
He really is some kind of literary genius wacko isn’t he?
Doesn’t give a damn about who he rips off or who he offends….
But you have to admit; even his highly derivative ideas are provocative.
Personally I think the idea of taking iconic literary characters and throwing them together in some new context is both forced and hokey (The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, and Lost Girls)
Haven’t read it or even looked at it, but I’m with Kitty Woman With Knives and The Oracle CyranoRox on the Lost Girls…..Ew!
Poor Alice Liddel, Wendy Darling, and Dorothy Gale! The prototypical, classic children’s literature, pre-adolescent heroines thrown into a Freudian maelstrom of repressed childhood sexual trauma evolving into adult erotica! I’m not sure we needed to go there…
Last edited by pwsull, 5/30/2007, 3:42 am
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"Perily, this pichyssoise of perbiage peers most perbose, so let me simply add that it is my very good honor to meet you and you may call me"...... P |
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5/30/2007, 3:40 am
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Doctor Delia
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
So isn't it odd, that Larry Wachowski, who has taken such a drubbing in the press over his ...ummm...alternative lifestyle has given us such a splendid heroine, one that we can all identify with? While Alan Moore really has some strange notions about women, not the least GN Evey Hammond?
Other than walking out on his wife, which is not so uncommon, has Wachowski really really done anything to deserve public humilitation? Rene Richards and Jan Morris were kind of like heroes (heroines?) in their day for their transgender stand. And a little S&M between consenting adults, so what?
Why does everyone want to pile on to Larry Wachowski?
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5/30/2007, 3:22 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
quote:
pwsull wrote:
The prototypical, classic children’s literature, pre-adolescent heroines thrown into a Freudian maelstrom of repressed childhood sexual trauma evolving into adult erotica! I’m not sure we needed to go there…
 Sorry. First thing I thought when I read that was "leave it to the psychologist..."
 Luv ya, pw!!!
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5/30/2007, 6:35 pm
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I find him interesting, but at the same time want to keep my distance.
