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MelindaKitty
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Start by watching V's reaction to Evey's offer of assistance before the whole priest debacle:
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CyranoRox wrote: His acceptance of her offer to help is minimal, cool, distant--still delicious, of course, but perhaps not what she might have hoped for.
But it's more than that. I had the keen sense of gears turning. She ASKED him to help her without asking. She indicated a keen wish she couldn't fully articulate to live up to her parents' legacy. He knew what it was to be forged by fire. He decided to temper Evey with water.
And I absolutely agree that V KNEW the second he kidnapped Evey from the Gordon house that it would be the end of their previously innocent relationship. He knew the Evey he had loved from first sight would be gone forever. But he did it not only for the greater good, but for her good. Like Valerie, Evey became a symbol of what V is fighting for, and what he is willing to lose. But more powerful than Valerie, Evey has the potential to fight back and to win.
So let's get back to B&D. Because neither V nor Evey got any sexual pleasure from the experience, it cannot be B&D. There is also a grey-area of consent beforehand and a lack of safe-word. The closest we get is "No." which is the effective end of the fantasy. But that's still not quite right.
That said, the experience does all the very best things that the most dangerous kinds of B&D do, and in the same way, and for the same reasons. The experience is not sexual, but it is both exhausting and transformative for both participants on a deep and meaningful level.
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You are right that the captivity sequence is not a gratification to either character, so you have to give up considering it S&M; merely cruelty, anger, or coldly calculated use of hard means to a serious end.
By definition, what V does to Evey is NOT S&M because he derives no sexual gratification from it. Instead, he is ashamed of what he's done to get the effect he felt was necessary. Pushing Evey pushed V right to the brink of physical and emotional endurance. That's B&D at its hardest, because the person who binds must be in control. It's a harder position to be in, because in taking that role, V took all the responsibility as well. Evey's only task was to survive the ordeal, and the experience was not unlike the kind of psychological and physical "torture" that Marines and SEALs go through to make sure they won't crack under the enormous strain of battle and captivity. V had to take a long, hard look at himself and what he'd become. In doing so, he began to see that his excessive need to control alienated others from embracing his mission. In controlling Evey, he learned to surrender control to someone who was stronger than he.
That’s why he gives her the train, the lever, and the responsibility; he’s finally found someone who can handle all three.
V was forged in fire, Evey was tempered in water.
The two of them made each other stronger in ways neither could ever have imagined or accomplished alone. That's synergy at its darkest and finest.
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Maybe we should agree on the events that are actually shown in the captivity sequence . What, after all, do we see happening to E-V in the torture sequence?
She is interviewed She is shaved
And in doing so, there is an absolute break with her former self. Hair is so much of a woman's identity, whether we acknowledge it or not, that the loss of it is a loss of self.
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She is showered with her hands bound above her head.
Washing away the past. Evey is free to scream, free to struggle, but not free to leave. Moreover, the treatment leaves no scars. The effects are purely psychological. (But no less devastating.)
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She is in a chair in a dark room with glaring lights.
Intimidation at its most effective. What we fear and can't control are always much worse than what a person actually might do to us.
Tom Petty is right: the waiting IS the hardest part.
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She is dragged into her cell
And unceremoniously dumped. She is put in a cage, but the idea is that the cage can only hold her body. Through a development of mind and purpose, there will soon be nothing that can hold her ever again.
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Her food is coarse and a rat appears
And sniffs at it and rejects it. Evey learns to ignore the physical cravings of the body that is every bit as much of a cage as the cold metal and cement around her. She will do what she must to survive, but relies on no-one, instead turning inward to become as tempered as a katana. It's a warrior version of the "extinguishing" of Buddhism, in which the individual subsumes herself to the universal, and in doing so becomes more than human.
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Her face is plunged into water
Again, the washing away of the former identity. The old Evey drowns in that bowl. The new E-V emerges, stronger with every dousing. All aspects of her old personality are rinsed away.
At this point, I should mention the use of the Black Bag. This is a stroke of genius on V's part. To Evey, it symbolized every fear imaginable in one neat little package. To be Black Bagged was to disappear, to be tortured and murdered and forgotten.
Compare Evey's reaction when the Black Bag is first removed, and E-V's reaction the last time the Black Bag is removed.
Evey cowers in terror, shrinking before our eyes in inarticulate and weeping horror, unable to defend herself verbally or physically. She is all but whimpering with fear, and goes like a lamb to the shears.
E-V appears like a perfect statue, unveiled before an appreciative audience. She pauses to let her eyes adjust to the light, then opens them with a gaze as serene and implacable as the statue she resembles. She gazes at her captors, unmoved and uncowed. She has survived everything they have thrown at her and is ready to survive worse, secure in her purpose. She inhabits her body, but is no longer defined by it.
As V himself says, she is free.
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She is told that she will be shot
And the threats have no power over her. They're just words, and can no more hold E-V than anything else around her. The balance has shifted, and the person/people who bind are now bound by the unbreakable nature of E-V's will. V hints at this later, saying that he would have stopped if she hadn't been so strong. In forging her he went to the absolute limit of what he himself could endure. In short, he found his other half. Not in a sexual sense, but in the sense that she became every bit as strong as he was.
And he fell even more deeply in love with her. Not because he tortured her, but because she survived and became far more than he'd ever expected.
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She is told [by the only one, imho, HW without the mask] that she is protecting someone who does not give a **** about her.
Actually, she's asked WHY she's protecting someone who doesn't give a **** about her, but that's semantics. This in and of itself isn't even the interesting moment, as Evey has not yet become fully E-V, but we see the first glimmer of her in the defiant glare she turns on the door as soon as it closes.
The really interesting moment is the final temptation. Faced with the formidable E-V, V gives her one last chance to backslide. He appears as another faceless captor and begs her to give in, to "give them something".
She politely tells him she'd rather die behind the chemical sheds.
And the audience CHEERS.
Why?
Because her tempering is complete. The change is so permanent, so absolute that the audience sees in E-V everything they wish they could be under that kind of duress. There's a certain wish-fulfillment there. We would all like to be the underdog who keeps scrapping and keeps getting up no matter how many times she's knocked down. We wish for a cause that's literally worth dying for. We wish we could look death in the face and be that calm and collected.
I can understand a fascination with E-V because she is so completely unlike her predecessor. The Evey V first rescued is all but sniveling, bound by all her hangups, her damage, her past, and her unrelenting fear. E-V stands toe-to-toe with V and doesn't flinch. but she's not a psychopath like V; she's an Amazon.
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Anything else? not in my memory. Never struck. Never drugged. Never violated.
That was something that bugged me in the first viewing and that I marveled at later on. In most situations of captivity with degradation, rape (especially serial and violent rape) is another strategy used by the captor to break the will of the captive. V never crosses that line. If he had, THAT would've been the point at which the captivity would've been sexually gratifying, sado-masochistic by definition, and completely indefensible.
It also would've squicked me out and I might've just left the theater.
But V doesn't cross that line. He's not out to "break" Evey, he's trying to temper her. One bends a blade in tempering, folding it in on itself again and again, subjecting it to extremes of heat and cold to make it stronger. The steel is never snapped, just pushed to its breaking point.
That is what V does.
E-V is the result.
FWIW
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5/15/2006, 3:21 pm
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Willow7302
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
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She ASKED him to help her without asking. She indicated a keen wish she couldn't fully articulate to live up to her parents' legacy.
I didnt catch this, but wondered about it, because she is clearly plotting to "act" her way out of the Shadow Gallery, but then her story is so authentic, and the connection between them deepens.
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He knew what it was to be forged by fire. He decided to temper Evey with water.
beautiful, beautiful imagery.
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E-V appears like a perfect statue, unveiled before an appreciative audience. She pauses to let her eyes adjust to the light, then opens them with a gaze as serene and implacable as the statue she resembles. She gazes at her captors, unmoved and uncowed. She has survived everything they have thrown at her and is ready to survive worse, secure in her purpose. She inhabits her body, but is no longer defined by it.
As V himself says, she is free.
I love this scene - you can hear the tibetan singing bowls in the sound track, and her strength is apparent in her calmness.
This is great, thanks all you articulate posters. I fell head over heals into facination with this story and our hero, and have been troubled by some elements of the story, and what is says about my desires.
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V: "There's no certainty - only opportunity."
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5/15/2006, 4:34 pm
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Willow7302
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Re: OK, here's my real fear
OK, here's my real fear:
In my past relationships with men i find irresistably attractive, a pattern emerges.
If i go all the way back to 6th grade:
Mr. Spock
cool, smart, remote, untouchable, unemotional
I have fallen for smart, elegant but unattainable and/or cruel men, and fall into this loop of longing unfullfilled, or worse. I endured some awful situations.
Now, I think I just REALLY want someone to teach me to be a warrior, but it got all tied up (pun half-intended) with wanting to be loved.
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V: "There's no certainty - only opportunity."
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5/15/2006, 5:29 pm
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Tamlin
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Wow. What a great thread. I'm not sure what I can add to it...but I'll try.
I'll note that I've been a member of Amnesty International for almost 20 years now . I've always stood against torture by governments much like the one in V for Vendetta. But why do I accept what V did to Evey? I don't know. As people have mentioned, what he did to Evey is not in any way on the level what is done to political prisoners, but that doesn't negate the fact that it was just awful. With good result, and basically boot camp in its nature, but it still made me shudder.
I agree that what V did to Evey is *not* s/m in any way shape or form. Totally different paradigm. I've seen on the boards like IMDB, though, that he *does* tend to bring up sadomasochistic fantasies in people, even if it's expressed jokingly.
And I KNOW that V's dominance was and is one of his major turnons for me. I had said on IMDB that it's strange...in the past I had a brief fantasy of his briefly putting a knife to my throat like he did Creedy...there's no death wish there at all for me, but something that would be an expression of trust in the man. But he's a psychopath - why in God's name would I trust him? I don't know. It's one of the many conflicting feelings that V brings up in me!
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5/15/2006, 6:01 pm
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Eslaquera
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
I've always thought that V started out sort of pissed off at Evey for trying to betray him, and yet he didn't want to see her hurt, so kidnapped her from Gordon's house. However, he couldn't just let her go after she tried to betry him once, so he tried to teach her a lesson. The V from the GN is acutally quite an asshole towards Evey, and I think the V in the movie was behaving the same way. But once Evey stood up to him, and he realized she was actually protecting him, he began to have a grudging respect for her. While he did end up helping her in the end, I don't think he started out this way.
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5/15/2006, 6:25 pm
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Tamlin
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
(mild spoilers) The V of the graphic novel, I've said to a few people, is more vicious than the V of the movie, if that's possible. I was seriously disturbed at how much of a jerk he was to Evey in the gn, but like the movie, his behavior towards trying to change her for the better still had good effects on her at the end. The difference for me is that in the gn, it actually surprised me that she still had respect for him (and more) when all was said and done!
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5/15/2006, 6:49 pm
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MelindaKitty
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Re: OK, here's my real fear
quote:
Willow7302 wrote:
OK, here's my real fear:
In my past relationships with men i find irresistably attractive, a pattern emerges.
If i go all the way back to 6th grade:
Mr. Spock
cool, smart, remote, untouchable, unemotional
I have fallen for smart, elegant but unattainable and/or cruel men, and fall into this loop of longing unfullfilled, or worse. I endured some awful situations.
This is a very personal admission, dearheart, and kudos to you for being willing to explore it.
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Now, I think I just REALLY want someone to teach me to be a warrior, but it got all tied up (pun half-intended) with wanting to be loved.
Or that you, like all of us, are both attracted to and repelled by the people you perceive to be "opposite" of yourself.
Your Spock figure is pretty porcelain: not quite human and all the more admirable for his inhumanity. Moreover, there is an illusion of control and responsibility in those who do not show emotions. That's fine for a First Officer, but it sucks rocks for a lover.
In loving the unloveable, we do two things:
1) Protect ourselves from a real and meaningful relationships, which involves give and take, trust, and RISK. Risk is scary. Risk can't be controlled. If you love someone who can't risk their emotions, you've done more than set yourself up for failure; you've predicted the inevitable result of the relationship before it can even begin. In doing so, you may not get the result you want, but you will on some deep, core level get what you're looking for: something familiar.
2) Fall victim to the "I can fix him/he can change" that is the very worst result of Western society's fairytale fixation. THAT is why I hate hate hate HATE the original ending of Beauty and the Beast, in which the Beast turns back into a handsome prince. That bugs the crap out of me, because it's not real life. In real life, a Beast stays a Beast, and to insist he change just to make him easier to live with is not only to fool one's self, but the act of robbing the Beast of his beastliness makes him less than he was. You in essence "declaw" and "housebreak" him, which may subject him to contempt as you pine for the dangerous creature he used to be. A cool, icy exterior is yet another kind of beastliness, and a woman who wants to "melt his frozen heart" should learn to appreciate frostbite and icy retorts.
As for myself, I've lived just enough life to know that the only way to tame Husband when he's being beastly is to love him and to set firm boundaries. Some things are simply unacceptable, and if I wouldn't tollerate them from a complete stranger, why on earth should I excuse them from a man who's known me half my life?
*hugs Willow7302 again*
Better hunting, love. Be who you are and you'll be a big step in the right direction.
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5/15/2006, 6:59 pm
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Chakram
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
Well stated points, MelindaKitty. You were able to explain my issues with defining the undertones or relationship between V and Evey as S&M. I didn't get any sense that any of the parties were gaining sexual gratificaiton or excitement from the events. Maybe I was just getting bogged down in the semantics.
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V: "Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power."
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5/15/2006, 7:15 pm
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Willow7302
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Re: Disturbing Themes of Sado-Masochism?
quote:
in those who do not show emotions. That's fine for a First Officer, but it sucks rocks for a lover.
no s**t!
I am learning more than I bargained for here - I was thinking these bad relationships were safely in the past.
you know, I still settle for too little of what I really want.
Happy hunting indeed!
thanks, kitty!
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V: "There's no certainty - only opportunity."
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5/15/2006, 7:22 pm
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