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pwsull
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
To Help in the process, here is the entire scene from MACBETH between Lord and Lady Macbeth:
ACT I, SCENE VII. Macbeth's castle.
Hautboys and torches. Enter a Sewer, and divers Servants with dishes and service, and pass over the stage. Then enter MACBETH
MACBETH
If it were done when 'tis done, then 'twere well
It were done quickly: if the assassination
Could trammel up the consequence, and catch
With his surcease success; that but this blow
Might be the be-all and the end-all here,
But here, upon this bank and shoal of time,
We'ld jump the life to come. But in these cases
We still have judgment here; that we but teach
Bloody instructions, which, being taught, return
To plague the inventor: this even-handed justice
Commends the ingredients of our poison'd chalice
To our own lips. He's here in double trust;
First, as I am his kinsman and his subject,
Strong both against the deed; then, as his host,
Who should against his murderer shut the door,
Not bear the knife myself. Besides, this Duncan
Hath borne his faculties so meek, hath been
So clear in his great office, that his virtues
Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against
The deep damnation of his taking-off;
And pity, like a naked new-born babe,
Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubim, horsed
Upon the sightless couriers of the air,
Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye,
That tears shall drown the wind. I have no spur
To prick the sides of my intent, but only
Vaulting ambition, which o'erleaps itself
And falls on the other.
Enter LADY MACBETH
How now! what news?
LADY MACBETH
He has almost supp'd: why have you left the chamber?
MACBETH
Hath he ask'd for me?
LADY MACBETH
Know you not he has?
MACBETH
We will proceed no further in this business:
He hath honour'd me of late; and I have bought
Golden opinions from all sorts of people,
Which would be worn now in their newest gloss,
Not cast aside so soon.
LADY MACBETH
Was the hope drunk
Wherein you dress'd yourself? hath it slept since?
And wakes it now, to look so green and pale
At what it did so freely? From this time
Such I account thy love. Art thou afeard
To be the same in thine own act and valour
As thou art in desire? Wouldst thou have that
Which thou esteem'st the ornament of life,
And live a coward in thine own esteem,
Letting 'I dare not' wait upon 'I would,'
Like the poor cat i' the adage?
MACBETH
Prithee, peace:
I dare do all that may become a man;
Who dares do more is none.
LADY MACBETH
What beast was't, then,
That made you break this enterprise to me?
When you durst do it, then you were a man;
And, to be more than what you were, you would
Be so much more the man. Nor time nor place
Did then adhere, and yet you would make both:
They have made themselves, and that their fitness now
Does unmake you. I have given suck, and know
How tender 'tis to love the babe that milks me:
I would, while it was smiling in my face,
Have pluck'd my nipple from his boneless gums,
And dash'd the brains out, had I so sworn as you
Have done to this.
MACBETH
If we should fail?
LADY MACBETH
We fail!
But screw your courage to the sticking-place,
And we'll not fail. When Duncan is asleep--
Whereto the rather shall his day's hard journey
Soundly invite him--his two chamberlains
Will I with wine and wassail so convince
That memory, the warder of the brain,
Shall be a fume, and the receipt of reason
A limbeck only: when in swinish sleep
Their drenched natures lie as in a death,
What cannot you and I perform upon
The unguarded Duncan? what not put upon
His spongy officers, who shall bear the guilt
Of our great quell?
MACBETH
Bring forth men-children only;
For thy undaunted mettle should compose
Nothing but males. Will it not be received,
When we have mark'd with blood those sleepy two
Of his own chamber and used their very daggers,
That they have done't?
LADY MACBETH
Who dares receive it other,
As we shall make our griefs and clamour roar
Upon his death?
MACBETH
I am settled, and bend up
Each corporal agent to this terrible feat.
Away, and mock the time with fairest show:
False face must hide what the false heart doth know.
Exeunt
ButMadNNW, we await your expertise!
P
Last edited by pwsull, 6/9/2006, 9:57 am
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6/9/2006, 9:55 am
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alexandra123
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
Thanks all you guys 
*puts hand in the air to ask another question*
"I dare do all that may become a man, who dares more is none"
This doesn't make sense to me, i mean, shouldn't we dare do more than ordinary men?....
I think it's the verb "to become" here that's making me confused... is this become as in "evey became stronger" or as in "V's trousers, when he's fencing the suit of armour, become him"   either way, doesn't really make much sense to me... or is it yet another meaning of "to become"?
Or is it the "to dare" that means something different nowadays?
And another thing, do any of you know any book on Shakespeare for foreigners of maybe even for english speakers but easy to understand! I would really like to delve into it a little bit more. Just the other day i bought a collection of BBC DVDs with 6 WS comedies (next month i'll buy the tragedies).
It's got: the taming of the shrew (with john cleese as petruchio), as you like it, midsummer night's dream, the merchant of venice, the tempest and 12th night, (i think........)
That same day i saw the taming of the shrew. I found it funny that the movie 10 things i hate about you had been based on that play, the sister's names were the same and the dating rule hehe. But that last speech of Kate, was that really a very misogynistic speech or had they rehearsed it in order to get her father's money on the bet? I mean, it was petruchio who had the wager ideia wasn't it?
I liked was the paralels between Kate's taming and Evey's transformation! Both Kate and Evey are married and kept against their will. And I liked the fact that petruchio starves himself as well as her and doesn't sleep either as he denies her sleep... but was that out of love or out of stuberness? it sounded almost like one masked vigilante we know of. I mean, we don't know if he did that (V, i mean) but i would like to think he didn't eat well and didn't sleep well while she was enprisoned. I wished the movie had conveyed that idea.
Do you recomend any film adaptations in special? I've heard the ones with Kenneth Branagh are good... ?
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6/9/2006, 10:15 am
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LadyVendetta
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
quote:
alexandra123 wrote:
Thanks all you guys
*puts hand in the air to ask another question*
"I dare do all that may become a man, who dares more is none"
This doesn't make sense to me, i mean, shouldn't we dare do more than ordinary men?....
I think it's the verb "to become" here that's making me confused... is this become as in "evey became stronger" or as in "V's trousers, when he's fencing the suit of armour, become him" either way, doesn't really make much sense to me... or is it yet another meaning of "to become"?
Or is it the "to dare" that means something different nowadays?
In this scene, MacBeth is having second thoughts about the murder of Duncan (suggested by Lady MacBeth) in order to gain power. Lady MacBeth is insulting his masculinity by basically saying that Macbeth is a wuss if he doesn't kill Duncan.
The quote in question is basically saying that there will be consequences to his actions if and when he kills Duncan. "Who dares do more is none" I believe is Macbeth saying that there will be dire reprecussions to his actions for the murder of Duncan. "Daring" to do more is the question...daring to kill Duncan, daring to accept the consequences for his and his wife's lust for power. Does the daring make one a man? To Macbeth, a real man would not commit murder ("Who dares do more is none, ie. not a man). Lady Macbeth sees otherwise. I hope that makes sense.
Books--I have to look into it. Do you want modern language types of Shakespeare books?
Movies--never liked Shakespearean movies that much. I have to admit, Kenneth Branaugh version of Hamlet was not my favorite. It is a word for word version of the play but it's long and didn't do much for me (then again I've seen it a long time ago)
My recommendations for the movies....
Henry V--Kenneth Branaugh. I really like this version.
Hamlet--Laurence Olivier or Mel Gibson (people get mad at me for liking this version but it is good because Mel gets into the madness of Hamlet which I like)
Romeo and Juliet--Baz Lurmann. It's a modern version with Shakespearean words. There's guns instead of swords, but I really like this version. It's modern so the images helps a person understand the plot.
Note of advice...leave the closed captioning on when watching Shakespeare on TV. It does help with the understanding of the words.
Hope this helps!
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6/9/2006, 3:21 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
Ooh, I'm behind on this thread......! Blame alexandra for the length of this post - she had to ask about film adaptations...  - Shakespeare and Film, two of my great loves!
quote:
pwsull wrote:
You do usually perk your ears up at any mention of his Bardness.
"Lucky guess - or else I've become horribly predictable." (Methos, "Timeless," Season 4, Highlander)
I dunno - I just love the Bard... even before I eventually settled on a major in English (I tarried briefly in two other majors first). I believe he's underappreciated by the populace, so love any chance to talk about him (they're so few, those chances), share my knowledge, and demonstrate that the language is more accessible than some think.
quote:
And it is absolutely fantastic to have your expertise available on this subject.
 You humble me, sir. I think you give my level of expertise more credit than it deserves...
But onward...!
I don't think I'm going to be able to fully contribute on MacBeth without going home and pulling out a copy of the play to look at footnotes - I only read that play once and am rusty on it. And I haven't really said anything about Twelfth Night yet...
quote:
alexandra123 wrote:
Do you recomend any film adaptations in special? I've heard the ones with Kenneth Branagh are good... ?
*perks up at Ken's name*
But first, a couple of notes on Shrew:
1) If you like modernized teenage adaptations, I recommend O, which was based on Othello - it's not the best movie in the world, but it's close to being my favorite modernized adaptation. Also, the recently released She's the Man is adapted from Twelfth Night, but I can't offer an opinion on it, other than that I haven't seen it because as a general rule, I don't like those movies and the previews for that one looked similarly dumb (I haven't seen 10 Things, either).
2) Kate's speech - to this day, I don't think anyone is sure what to make of it. Personally, it raises my feminist hackles. A lot depends on the interpretation of the individual production - the mood the director wants to portray, the way the actress delivers it. Whatever subtext Will intended, it didn't get conveyed in the printed text.
Now, back to your question about film adaptations (Disclaimer: Each movie I recommend is my favorite at this time - or possibly the only version I've seen; subject to change if I see a different version):
1) Romeo & Juliet - Franco Zeffirelli's 1968 version - possibly most notable because it was the first film version of the play to cast an actor (17 years old) and actress (15) for the title roles who were close to the characters' ages (in one of the Nurse's lines, she identifies Juliet as... 14?) - previously, they'd been played by adults. But all around, a great film! The fact that I appreciate that film so much increases my horror over how Zeffirelli butchered Hamlet (the version starring Mel Gibson).
2) Hamlet, Prince of Denmark - Arguably the greatest play ever written in the English language, and my personal favorite (as if you couldn't tell by my screenname and sig, LOL). Layers of political intrigue; family dysfunction; a maddeningly indecisive, talkative Prince; murder; treason; madness and suicide - what's not to love? Not to mention some of the most memorable, beautifully written lines in history - the first time I read it, I was amazed how many of the lines I already knew, because they have become so commonly quoted (and most people don't realize where the saying originated). As mentioned above, avoid the Mel Gibson/Zeffirelli version - a professor forced me to watch it, and it was downright painful; Glenn Close's Gertrude is, IMO, a bizarre interpretation, and they shortened the play to 2 hours by cutting out some of the subplots. While this is not a horrible thing to do to some stories, doing it to Hamlet detracts from the scope and parallels Will instilled therein.
Instead, I highly recommend Kenneth Branagh's full-text version (1996), the only film version to use the entire script, though with a couple of speeches misplaced. Be warned, however, that you're in for a 4-hour movie! Well worth it, though, IMO. (I will freely admit it's not a perfect film, but it's as close to it for this play as I'm aware.) Sadly, this version has not yet been released on DVD - I wish they would hurry up, because my VHS is wearing out! Visually gorgeous, this is the film that convinced me that Kate Winslet actually does know how to act, and while some of the "big name" stars were obviously cast for their name, most of them deliver excellent performances.
I also want to mention the Ethan Hawke 2000 version - I have not seen it, and never will, if I have my way. I object to this trend of moving Will's plays into present day settings while retaining the Elizabethean language. It just looks and sounds odd! We no longer talk like that (it's debatable whether anyone ever talked like that - no tape recorders back then, and literature is not always the best record of how people actually spoke), so doing so in a modern day setting comes off as comical. And I hear that Ethan delivers Hamlet's infamous rumination on suicide while wandering the aisles of a video rental store?! Ye gods! IMO, a modernized setting is (advisedly) okay if you're using the same plot but also updating the dialogue - Elizabethean language should be in an 1800s or earlier setting. 
While I'm on the subject of Ken...
3) I'll start with Henry V (1989). I own this movie, but I must admit I haven't yet sat down to watch it. I like to read the play first, so I have some background knowledge - otherwise, the performance loses me - and I haven't gotten around to doing so. However, this was Ken's directorial debut (he was 28 when the film was released) and the first of his many Shakespeare films. It's also worth noting that Ken was credited as screenwriter for all the Shakespeare he's done, except Othello (also the only one he didn't direct).
4) Much Ado About Nothing (1993) - Witness in horror as Keanu Reeves attempts serious acting in a Shakespearean role! Actually, because he plays the villain, his bad acting almost works to his favor - the performance is sooo wooden. Michael Keaton's Dogberry is..... odd. Denzel Washington (in one of many examples of Ken's infamously colorblind casting) is all right as the Prince. Emma Thompson, IMO, is mostly excellent as the sharp-witted Beatrice. Overall, the movie falls into the "fun romp" genre - could be better, but enjoyable anyway. The Tuscany countryside makes for lush backdrops, and the film opens with partial nudity (I have a quote from Ken somewhere that that was partially to get the high schoolers' attention when forced to watch the play in class ).
5) Directed by Oliver Parker, Othello (1995) features Lawrence Fishburne as the title character. As far as I'm concerned, the highlight of the film is Ken Branagh's deliciously chilling Iago, who delivers most of his soliloquies and monologues directly to the camera. The first time he turned to look straight at me (through the camera's lens), I got chills! As often happens, the play was trimmed down to bare bones, but Parker's directorial debut holds the distinction of being the first film version to cast a black actor in the role of the Moor of Venice. Which is sad when you consider it didn't get released until 1995...
(The most recent - hopefully not last! - Shakespeare movie Ken did was an updated, musical version of Love's Labour's Lost, but I can't comment, as I haven't seen it. So, time to move on to other actors. LOL)
(continued)
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6/9/2006, 4:14 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
6) Richard III (1995) - Now, here is an "update" that I adore. Ian McKellen stars as the hunchbacked Duke-cum-King and delivers the Elizabethean dialogue with precision menace and pacing. The setting, which helps to highlight the universal and timeless menace of such evil, might be described as Shakespeare meets V. Imagine Nazi Germany of the 1930s, but set in London of that time, with Elizabethean words falling out of everyone's mouths. (Sadly, the line that V quotes to the Bishop is cut from this film version...) It's helpful if you are somewhat familiar with the play first - characters are introduced and killed off by Richard's machinations in record time.
A historical note about Richard III - there is no evidence that I know of supporting the play's insistence that Richard was hunchbacked or a bad guy. He was of the family York, while Elizabeth I (Queen when Shakespeare wrote the play) was a Tudor - those two families fought over the English throne for ages, the most memorable conflict probably being the War of the Roses, which the Yorks won ("Now is the winter of our discontent made glorious summer by this son of York," notes Richard's opening line). So Will was writing about a York King while living under Tudor rule - it's probable that Richard being portrayed as an evil hunchback was pure propoganda.
7) The only Midsummer's Night Dream I've seen on film is the Kevin Kline, Stanley Tucci, Michelle Pfeiffer 1999 version. I can't quite bring myself to recommend it. Pfeiffer turned the strong-willed Queen of the Fairies, Titania, into a bubble-headed, dreamy-voiced beauty queen, and most of the rest of the cast gives lacking performances (Calista Flockhart?  ). The only thing I can think of to recommend about this film is Stanley Tucci's performance as Puck, but even that goes a bit overboard from time to time.
8) Above all, there is one film that I have to recommend to all of you: The Reduced Shakespeare Company's The Complete Works of William Shakespeare (Abridged)!! I saw the "Other RSC" perform this show live twice while I was in London - sadly, the show has since closed in the West End, but I believe they're still doing scattered touring performances. You can find out more about the guys and their various Abridged shows here.
Anyway, their Shakespeare show is not to be missed, whatever your view of the Bard. Seeing it on DVD, apparently recorded for PBS, is not quite the same as seeing it live because the live show (including the three cast members) was never exactly the same twice, but it's a suitable and still hilarious substitute. And it's the only way to see "all 37 plays in 97 minutes!" Highlights include the Othello rap, cross-dressing (all-male cast), and backwards Hamlet!
Trivia note: The Other RSC has twice (to my knowledge) performed Reduced snippets of Shakespeare for video clues on Jeopardy!
(And no, I don't own stock in the Other RSC. But I did get a chance to meet some of the guys - none of the ones in the DVD, but oh well - at the stage door, and they're such nice, funny guys!)
===
So there you have it - everything you never wanted to know about my opinions of Shakespearean films! There may be one or two I've seen that I'm forgetting - if I think of them, I'll let you know.
Now, I have to go finish my work, or I won't be allowed to have a weekend, so I'll return to this thread (hopefully armed with footnotes and insights) at a later time.
(EDIT - LadyV and I disagree a bit on the movies, but I have to echo her recommendation to leave the subtitles/captions on! Confession time: When I was assigned to read Hamlet for a Theatre class, I put it off and finally rented Ken's version the day before I was due to have it read. I watched the entire thing in one sitting, book in one hand, remote in the other, captions on... ONLY time I ever watched a movie instead of doing the actual reading! And while LadyV doesn't like Ken's Hamlet, I don't think I would class it my favorite play if not for that movie; I fell in love with it in that first viewing.)
Last edited by ButMadNNW, 6/9/2006, 4:25 pm
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6/9/2006, 4:18 pm
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alexandra123
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
Hey it seems willow and i had the same idea at the same time 
lady vendetta, phill, thanks a lot!!
quote:
Does the daring make one a man? To Macbeth, a real man would not commit murder
oh right!! of course, he means that some things a man shouldn't do, because it's not the daring that makes a man. But... this contrasts a bit with V's personality... i mean, he does dare to do a lot!!! That's why i didn't get it, i kept putting it into V's perspective and that situation of bravery in particular, stealing the butter from sutler!
I once read a quote somewhere that said that the brave ones are often ignorant of the perils at which they throw themselves and cowardice is only the knowledge on those perils. I think this applies here, to some extent
quote:
Books--I have to look into it. Do you want modern language types of Shakespeare books?
?? I'm afraid i don't get your meaning...  modern language types? Are there ancient language types? I mean, i want to understand what he wrote, not just metaphorically but the actual vocabulary too! And in order for me to do that it's got to be in modern english... i hope i'm explaining myself well... something like a guide to understand shakespeare's work.... I could look into it in portuguese bookstores, but the problem is, they translate the text!!! what i would like is the original texts (or bits of it, of course, not the whole texts or else it would be a super-book!) and then an explanation in plain moderns english
quote:
Romeo and Juliet--Baz Lurmann
Yes! This one is responsible for some quoting on my part, the other day i was coming home from my boyfriend's house, and of course when we part it always seems like we haven't been together for enough time and "will thou leave so unsatisfied" slipped my lips  (he and i are big movie fans and throw movie lines at each other all the time but he's not that familiar with shakespeare so i took the pleasure of explaining that particular quote to him ) and i know (and loooove) the classics:
"parting is such sweet sorrow that i shall say good night till it be morrow" (quoting of the top of my head, some are surely missquoted, sorry!)
"there lies more peril in thine eyes than in twenty of their swords. But if thou does not love me, let them find me here, i'd rather die from their swords (this part is wrong... i can't remember the right one, have to go check) than wanting thy love",
"Oh Romeo, Romeo ... what's in a name ... " and the whole balcony speach
"a plague on both your houses"
"the sun, for sorrow will not show his head" (this was my msn messenger's nick name the other day it was cloudy!)
"my only love sprung from my only hate, too early seen unknown and known too late, prodigious birth of love it is to me that i must love a loathed enemy" I love this one! It just flows so easily out of your mouth!
and my personal favorite "I'm fortune's fool". I love the whole meaning of this expression, it's so powerful.. so full of frustration... i don't know what it is but it gets me every time  !... and I loved the way Leonardo DiCaprio said it in the movie!!
quote:
leave the closed captioning on when watching Shakespeare on TV
no kidding! usually i don't need subtitles in movies in english, i can understand them pretty well, but when i saw the taming of the shrew... not only did i read the subtitles, i had to rewing a couple of times to (try to) understand every thing, and even so.... i'm not sure i did!!! 
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6/9/2006, 4:31 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
quote:
alexandra123 wrote:
quote:
Books--I have to look into it. Do you want modern language types of Shakespeare books?
?? I'm afraid i don't get your meaning... modern language types? Are there ancient language types? I mean, i want to understand what he wrote, not just metaphorically but the actual vocabulary too! And in order for me to do that it's got to be in modern english...
I'm not sure if LadyV was thinking of these or not, but I know that there are editions of Shakepeare's plays where the original language is printed on one page, and a modern English "translation" is printed on the facing page - so you can compare the old and new side by side. I was out sick for a few days when my 9th grade English class was reading Romeo & Juliet (first one I ever read), and when I got back, my teacher let me borrow such a book, so I could catch up and understand, having missed the class discussions. It was helpful at the time.
quote:
"I'm fortune's fool". I love the whole meaning of this expression, it's so powerful.. so full of frustration... i don't know what it is but it gets me every time !... and I loved the way Leonardo DiCaprio said it in the movie!!
Ah, Leo.... besides my already professed dislike for such modernized versions, Leo is another large part of the reason I've never seen that movie. But that's me.
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6/11/2006, 4:36 am
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Willow7302
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
greetings, verbally vital vixens!
alas, not enough time for catching up today, but I can report that Tamlin and I are at the beach, and reading MacBeth to each other.
ah, what fools these mortals be! 
back at you soon with more opinions, of course!
hugs,
willow
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V: "There's no certainty - only opportunity."
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6/11/2006, 9:06 am
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LadyVendetta
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
quote:
ButMadNNW wrote:
quote:
alexandra123 wrote:
quote:
Books--I have to look into it. Do you want modern language types of Shakespeare books?
?? I'm afraid i don't get your meaning... modern language types? Are there ancient language types? I mean, i want to understand what he wrote, not just metaphorically but the actual vocabulary too! And in order for me to do that it's got to be in modern english...
I'm not sure if LadyV was thinking of these or not, but I know that there are editions of Shakepeare's plays where the original language is printed on one page, and a modern English "translation" is printed on the facing page - so you can compare the old and new side by side. I was out sick for a few days when my 9th grade English class was reading Romeo & Juliet (first one I ever read), and when I got back, my teacher let me borrow such a book, so I could catch up and understand, having missed the class discussions. It was helpful at the time.
Yes, that's what I meant. There used to be books with the Shakespearean on one side and the 'plain language' translation on the other. No luck in finding one yet. sorry.
quote:
Ah, Leo.... besides my already professed dislike for such modernized versions, Leo is another large part of the reason I've never seen that movie. But that's me.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Hey, I was almost cheering when Leo went under in Titanic. LOL I'm usually not a fan of modernized tales, but Baz is just a fave of mine so I had to see it (his movies always seem like he was directing whilst on crack. LOL) It wasn't that bad though (Leo aside). There were changes made that I didn't like but for understanding purposes, this is a good one to watch after seeing an original, more traditional version.
---
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"You don't accidentally become an ass. It takes a bit of work."--Ozzy Ozbourne |
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6/11/2006, 11:29 am
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alexandra123
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Registered: 04-2006
Location: Portugal
Posts: 101
Karma: 8 (+8/-0)
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Re: And What Exactly Does All That Shakespeare in V Mean?
quote:
Willow said:
verbally vital vixens!
LOL
quote:
ButMad said:
there are editions of Shakepeare's plays where the original language is printed on one page, and a modern English "translation" is printed on the facing page
That would be *very* helpful! If some sort of explanations and literary analysis could be thrown in: icing on the cake! 
But those sorts of things may exist here in local book stores... sometimes in the middle of the city there are those small especialized stores... i guess a walk around lisbon's downtown is in order......
*get's hicking shoes*
I'm sure there may be some like that @ amazon too, i'll have to check.
What i really wanted to know is if you Shakespeare specialists know of some very good book, like the bible of the shakespeare analysis or something...
about leo's version: Well, i saw it because it was the easiest way i had to see R&J. it was interesting though, i liked the change of the swords for the guns, and yes, our friend baz does seem to enjoy his chromatic orgasms!!!! Plus i liked the soundtrack! All in all it wasn't such a mad movie!...
---
Live and let live
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6/11/2006, 12:29 pm
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