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ButMadNNW
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
quote:
freedom4ever wrote:
That was very interesting reading ButMad. Although I don't think the article is unflawed
Hey, nothing's perfect.  But hopefully it at least provides some food for thought. I love their writing styles and the way they simplify topics (so even laypeople can get it) without condescending or dumbing down.
Care to share what you saw as "flawed'?
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First thing, think of it as being "ready to succeed."
I like that!
I'm not a fan of generalized "positive thinking" or "affirmations," but because of the way our brains work, positively phrased ideas are supposed to work better. Like instead of telling someone, "Don't drop that plate you're carrying," which is phrased negatively ("Don't") and includes the phrase "drop that plate," it's supposed to be better to say something like, "Hang on to it." *shrug* If that makes sense.
Using that idea, this is the thinking I employed in my previous comment: you said you're "ready for another attempt," but any time there's an "attempt," there's potential for failure. So if you instead think in terms of succeeding instead of simply trying, maybe it'll help. Again, I'm not an expert.
I can't tell anymore if I'm making sense. It's after 4am and I haven't been to bed yet. 
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Only one cigarette so far this morning, (Usually had at least 7 by 11am!) and it really wasn't that satisfying!
Good! and good!! 
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Had breakfast instead this morning which was a weird sensation. You may think that sounds ridiculous, but I have lived on black coffee and fags for breakfast the last 15 years!
No, it's not ridiculous. I can actually relate to that, for a different reason. I used to always skip breakfast, except when I was "dieting," because they always tell you to make sure to eat breakfast so you don't get over-hungry and eat too much for lunch. So every time I'd start a "diet" or try to change my eating habits, I'd have to get re-used to the idea of eating in the morning, and it is weird at first. And I'd eventually go back to skipping breakfast because I didn't have enough time or ran out of breakfast foods or I just didn't feel like it or whatever.
I'm employing new strategies this time (reference my earlier comments about accomplishing things on the unconscious level), and it's going really well so far. On the surface of things, I'm extremely optimistic. However, it's only been about three weeks that I've been actively working on my eating habits, and knowing my history, I'm sticking with cautiously optimistic for now (down 3-5 lbs, btw). At the same time, I not only haven't had any soda for nine weeks, I haven't wanted soda in that time; have lost my taste and cravings for it.
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Oh God, I'm gonna get really fat aren't I ?! 
 Contrary to popular opinion, getting fat is not an inevitable side effect of stopping smoking. ....but we're getting outside of the area where I feel comfortable offering "wisdom" (I forget why some smokers gain weight, and I'm not sure what all to tell you about it), so I'm not going to comment further on this point.
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7/21/2007, 4:42 am
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freedom4ever
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
quote:
ButMad wrote:
Using that idea, this is the thinking I employed in my previous comment: you said you're "ready for another attempt," but any time there's an "attempt," there's potential for failure. So if you instead think in terms of succeeding instead of simply trying, maybe it'll help
 You're right. My choice of words did imply failure. I think I'm probably more scared of failing to give up then anything else. Therefore if I expect to fail, I can't be disappointed! Ah, the human brain, what a complex and annoying thing! I am hampering my own efforts before I even begin! Doh!
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Contrary to popular opinion, getting fat is not an inevitable side effect of stopping smoking. ....but we're getting outside of the area where I feel comfortable offering "wisdom" (I forget why some smokers gain weight, and I'm not sure what all to tell you about it), so I'm not going to comment further on this point.
Please don't worry, frankly, if I do gain weight it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world as I am probably a little underweight at the moment. Being a vegan has done little for my appetite and smoking has surpressed my appetite for years anyway. Don't worry about what you advise either ButMad, I am really grateful for the time you have taken to find me literature on this subject. I don't see you as responsible for the outcome of my efforts, any advice is gratefully received.
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I can't tell anymore if I'm making sense. It's after 4am and I haven't been to bed yet.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You clearly have a great understanding of this topic. Tired or not you make perfect sense. I have been given new hope. I believe that understanding the pshycology of the cause of smoking may be what works for me. Although getting no sleep is not healthy either! Go to bed! :O)
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Hey, nothing's perfect. But hopefully it at least provides some food for thought. I love their writing styles and the way they simplify topics (so even laypeople can get it) without condescending or dumbing down.
Care to share what you saw as "flawed'?
Definately more than food for thought. It included some really important points, described in a way that I haven't heard before.
The flaws as I saw them were as follows:
Mostly contained in the 'Smoking beliefs and arguments' section.
'It's my friend/companion/'secret vice'. It 'looks after me' when I'm stressed/upset/disappointed/bored etc.
Yeah, weakening your gums, destroying your serotonin so you get more depression and pain, slowing blood flow into your penis (if you're a man) and shrivelling your ovaries (if you're a woman), dimming your vision, and making you look 10 years older. If a person did this to me I wouldn't be sending them Christmas cards.'
Yeah yeah, yada yada! I think this is a little naive. Most people have a vice of one sort or another. Whilst it is undeniable that it does the harm stated, it is also undeniable that a cigarette, or an alcoholic drink, can help in times of great stress. Of course going for a run or having a long bath is more advisable and just as effective. He could have offered this as an alternative rather than just reiterating the health issues. Also, I don't send my cigarettes Christmas cards (A weird addition to his comment I felt).
'My Uncle Fred smoked every day of his life and ran marathons until he was 110!
Good! Was he insane? The average smoker pays seven years of life for their habit. '
I'm sorry to say I read this and thought "Seven years!! Is that all?! I thought it was way more than that!" This did not motivate me!
'If I didn't smoke, what would I do with my hands?
Errrr… go look at some non-smokers or people who haven't started yet – or think back! '
This seems a litlle unsympathetic. Whilst this may seem stupid to a non smoker, as I stated before, I have smoked since I was 12. Cigarettes are not so much something I do so much as an extension of my hand! Ask anyone who has lost a limb to describe how they have had to adapt and I am sure they would tell you it was not easy. Whilst I am likening losing a limb to losing my fags, it is merely an example, I am not underestimating the severity of losing a limb. (Just had to make that clear)
I'm gonna stop there. Unfortunately, I found the tone in this list a little patronising, particularly the repetitive mention of smokers 'growing out' of a habit. Whilst I agree with his interpretation of adolescents and the reasons for starting smoking as a youth, smoking as an adult is not necassarily a childish behaviour. It is an addiction, something that you learn to incorporate into your adult life and decisions made to give up should not be seen (In my opinion) as being 'ready to grow out of the habit' It is about realising you can live without it quite happily. I have always known the dangers of smoking, I haven't just realised and decided to give up on the back of it.
I feel like I'm ranting now. This has consumed my thoughts for the last 48 hours. I have new hope.  I hope that my ranting does not come across as defensive! I promise I'm not! And although I have laid into parts of the article, I was also really impressed with a lot of it (Examples of which I am also happy to give). I have added it to my favourites as a reminder in times of weakness!
I have woken this morning with a severe pain in my back and lungs after a heavy nights smoking in the pub. There is no better time to SUCCEED! Now then, where's the  !
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7/22/2007, 1:01 am
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ButMadNNW
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
If you're just joining us, welcome to "The F4E and ButMad Show"! (I'm always amused when threads turn into two-person conversations. Hope no one's mad that we seem to have hijacked the thread...)
quote:
freedom4ever wrote:
Ah, the human brain, what a complex and annoying thing!
...and, at the same time, fascinating!
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I am hampering my own efforts before I even begin! Doh!
Recognizing that is a good step in the right direction. 
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smoking has surpressed my appetite for years anyway.
Ah! That's it! That's the thing I was forgetting. Thanks.
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I can't tell anymore if I'm making sense. It's after 4am and I haven't been to bed yet.
Don't be so hard on yourself. You clearly have a great understanding of this topic. Tired or not you make perfect sense.
 Thanks! 
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The flaws as I saw them were as follows: <snip>
*nods* I can see that... My general comment here would be "what resonates with one person may not with another." And to a certain degree, the list kind of comes off as a bit of a rant, which is unfortunate. I'm just happy that you've found even parts of the article useful.
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Most people have a vice of one sort or another.
That fact is acknowledged - perhaps not in that article, but in other references from the source. But this article isn't talking about all vices, just one particular one.
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it is also undeniable that a cigarette, or an alcoholic drink, can help in times of great stress. Of course going for a run or having a long bath is more advisable and just as effective.
You provided the response I was going to make, so I'm not adding anything to this. After all, in my own struggle, I could dive into a pint of ice cream at the end of a long day... or I could spend a few minutes in deep relaxation - or do some yoga.
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I don't send my cigarettes Christmas cards (A weird addition to his comment I felt).
Eh, Mark has a bit of a strange sense of humor (kind of like mine ). I think how I read that comment is that the bare minimum contact one might have with an old friend is sending a Christmas card once a year. But if that old friend was a destructive relationship to have, you'd drop them off your mailing list, yeah? You certainly wouldn't spend time with them every day.
 Just my take.
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smoking as an adult is not necassarily a childish behaviour.
I don't think that's what was meant. And FWIW and IMO, I think the "growing out of it" comment is explained better in the audio file I tried to link to.
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I feel like I'm ranting now.
S'okay. And no, I didn't read you as defensive - you didn't agree with the phrasing of those bits; that's your opinion.
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I have new hope.
YAY!!
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And although I have laid into parts of the article, I was also really impressed with a lot of it (Examples of which I am also happy to give). I have added it to my favourites as a reminder in times of weakness!
To quote KittyRoomie: "I help!"
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I have woken this morning with a severe pain in my back and lungs after a heavy nights smoking in the pub.
Ah, the smoking ban is being followed to the letter, eh?
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There is no better time to SUCCEED!
 Go, freedom! Go, freedom! (where are my pom-poms?) 
Last edited by ButMadNNW, 7/22/2007, 2:19 pm
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7/22/2007, 2:14 pm
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ButMadNNW
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
BTW, F4E - I sent you an actual email (instead of going through Runboard's PM system). If you haven't gotten it, check your Bulk - my username on my email is the same as it is here.
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7/22/2007, 10:57 pm
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freedom4ever
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
quote:
If you're just joining us, welcome to "The F4E and ButMad Show"! (I'm always amused when threads turn into two-person conversations. Hope no one's mad that we seem to have hijacked the thread...)
Can I be Oprah?!
Actually it had occured to me that at any moment you may put on your police officer's hat and move us along! I am sure if it bothers anyone they can soon say and of course anyone can jump in at any stage, I need help let's face it!
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To quote KittyRoomie: "I help!"
Indeed you have!
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Ah, the smoking ban is being followed to the letter, eh?
Er yeah, but no, but yeah, but no, but er, I was nowhere near the enclosed space, right?! I am soooooo going to jail! (At least I would be if they weren't all full to bursting already.  ) I think the ban will take a while to take hold where I live, (In the middle of the countryside, beware the moors!) the pub is like the 'slaughtered lamb' in 'an American werewolf in London'! You walk in, the music stops, you feel intimidated, you walk out again.
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Go, freedom! Go, freedom! (where are my pom-poms?)
I intend to be entirely honest with posts relating to my progress. Please try not to be too disappointed in me in times of weakness!
I found it surprisingly easy this morning not to have the first fag of the day. I didn't eat either because I was sulking, but a step in the right direction!
Once I got to work, things got harder. Why does my brain want me to die?! 
Brain: Oh, well done, you've made a phonecall, have a celebratory cigarette.
You did all that credit control by yourself? Well done, have a fag.
This went on all day. I buckled at 1.45pm. 
S'ok though, have come home to read inspirational material and occupy self with alternative activities.
That's the latest, I will make it for longer tomorrow.
Maybe time to move the thread now! I've made it all about me, me, me! Readers please feel free to continue the original conversation, and I will keep my 'quitting diary' elsewhere!
ButMad, I got your email ta!
Last edited by freedom4ever, 7/23/2007, 9:04 am
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7/23/2007, 8:59 am
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ButMadNNW
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Re: Secondhand smoke and pets
quote:
freedom4ever wrote:
Can I be Oprah?!
Better you than me.
quote:
Actually it had occured to me that at any moment you may put on your police officer's hat and move us along!
...yeah. I'm not that good at policing my own meanderings. I was having too much "fun" in the conversation and didn't realize how many posts we'd gone through!
Message board threads are organic beasts - they grow, adapt, wander. We're still (mostly) on topic. I thought about starting a new thread called "Becoming a Non-Smoker," for you and others to talk about efforts to quit. But then I realized I'd want to repost a lot of what I've already said here, so I took the lazy route and renamed this thread!  (Tam, hope you don't mind!) With an open invitation for anyone to continue the thread with conversation on secondhand smoke and pets, quitting diaries, or whatever related to smoking.
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quote:
Go, freedom! Go, freedom! (where are my pom-poms?)
I intend to be entirely honest with posts relating to my progress. Please try not to be too disappointed in me in times of weakness!
Absolutely not. We all have our struggles, we all have our setbacks. I'm personally really pleased that I haven't given in to the Ben & Jerry's display at my local grocery store in the last few weeks! (Oh, and evil idea of evil ideas - Mel and I noticed that Green & Black's is making ice cream now! I love their chocolate! so I was really happy that I was able to walk away from the freezer case last trip to the store.)
Actually, speaking of setbacks made me think of: I've started reading up on this psychiatrist, Milton H. Erickson - fascinating individual. He would do all sorts of interesting things, like "prescribing the symptom" or actually setting his patient up to have a (minor) setback ("encouraging a relapse"). I think what fascinates me the most about him, though, is the apparently enormous effect he had on seemingly everyone who met him or knew him (or even those who have just read about him since his death). But I digress...
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I found it surprisingly easy this morning not to have the first fag of the day.
quote:
Why does my brain want me to die?!
Habituation, adaptation, because smoking hijacks our built-in system for learning... And because your unconscious doesn't yet know what you've decided consciously - that it's time to become a non-smoker. Your unconscious is still sticking to the patterns it's learned over the course of your smoking years.
I apologize if I sound like a broken record, but I feel this is a really important point. Things really can be amazingly easy when you get your unconscious mind onboard with the change - you can adjust your instinctual responses, and change isn't such a battle. And the best way to affect your unconscious mind for positive change is through the use of hypnosis.
I'm not just speaking theoretically: in the past 10 weeks, I've kicked an embarrassing, destructive, 6-year-old habit (don't ask; I'm not telling), and am actively tackling my eating habits so I can become healthier and fitter. Granted, I've "dieted" many times before, with mixed results and many setbacks, but all those times were constant struggles, consciously knowing I shouldn't eat that pint of ice cream but fighting and often giving in to cravings. Nowadays, I don't have cravings. I've been eating more fruits and vegetables quite naturally, not because I know I should, but because they're what I want. I'm eating smaller portions. I'm satisfied with just a taste of good quality chocolate every other day or so. I can turn and walk away from the ice cream display in the store, because I realize I don't really want it. I've lost my taste for soda (and I used to drink it almost exclusively)!
I know nothing works for everyone (different things resonate with different people), and having been fascinated by the topic for more than 20 years, I know the mixed response the word "hypnosis" can receive. (Heck, up until recently, I was firmly "closeted" in my interest, because I could never predict how people would react.) But FWIW, working regularly with hypnosis these past 10 weeks (now that I've finally found an excellent resource for furthering my understanding) has helped me out a LOT, in a lot of ways. Even just the benefits of the regular relaxation are great.
So, there. I said it. Out loud. In public. In front of all the Vixens. (I know this sounds strange, but consider the fact that I've spent more than two decades "in the closet" with my interest in hypnosis. Which is in itself strange, I know, but it is what it is.)
So now I can post these links:
Uncommon Knowledge, founders of HypnosisDownloads.com. I invite anyone who's interested to check them out. Lots of really interesting information, and a growing library of more than 350 hypnosis audio programs (they even have a 90-day money-back guarantee, but I've yet to be disappointed by any of their programs), including a stop smoking program (I promise this will be the last time I plug it on this thread) and what I term their "free primer course in hypnosis." (They also have resources for panic attacks, depression, lots of stuff.)
So, yeah... I'm happy to make an attempt at answering any questions/concerns/misconceptions about hypnosis, if anyone has any. (If so, let's do that on another thread.)
Sorry for the digression! Back on topic:
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This went on all day. I buckled at 1.45pm.
It's a start.
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Maybe time to move the thread now! I've made it all about me, me, me!
Don't feel bad - I'm hoping that our conversation might have some lurkers who are gleaning just as much from our rambling as we are.
quote:
Tamlin wrote:
I'm just happy I posted something that got people talking about this topic... It's an important one with more than one facet, as we've proven!
Indeed. Hope you don't mind the rename!
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7/23/2007, 11:24 pm
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freedom4ever
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Re: "Secondhand smoke and pets" AND "Becoming a Non-Smoker"
quote:
ButMad wrote:
.....With an open invitation for anyone to continue the thread with conversation on secondhand smoke and pets, quitting diaries, or whatever related to smoking.
A quick up date for the 'second hand smoke and pets' section: I don't think my cat is enjoying me giving up at all. He says his mum is grumpy and she keeps eating anything that's not nailed down.
Actually, I was staring at the cat last night and within two minutes my brain made me believe that he had turned into a giant cigarette of wonder and joy, was about to light him when hubby pointed out I was hallucinating. Incidentally, hubby not enjoying the experience either. How do I protect those around me from the beast that I have become?! I know it won't last, but that's no good, he might divorce me before then! 
Thanks for sorting the thread out ButMad, feeling less guilty about hijacking it now!
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Absolutely not. We all have our struggles, we all have our setbacks. I'm personally really pleased that I haven't given in to the Ben & Jerry's display at my local grocery store in the last few weeks! (Oh, and evil idea of evil ideas - Mel and I noticed that Green & Black's is making ice cream now! I love their chocolate! so I was really happy that I was able to walk away from the freezer case last trip to the store.)
I can solve this problem and it would take temptation away from you too. Tell (Don't ask) the vendor at Green and Blacks to locate to CM23 England, I can single handedly increase their sales ten fold at present! The best bit being that as a vegan I can actually eat a lot of their chocolate. Although it doesn't sound as if you need to remove the temptation, you succeeded on your own.  I however, seem to be replacing one addiction with another!
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Habituation, adaptation, because smoking hijacks our built-in system for learning... And because your unconscious doesn't yet know what you've decided consciously - that it's time to become a non-smoker. Your unconscious is still sticking to the patterns it's learned over the course of your smoking years.
Well is my unconscious thick or what?! I know this 'syndrome' all too well. Indeed, I believe our beloved GN V says when enlightening Evey 'Part of you knows it to be true, just as part of you pretends not to'. How can I have an understanding of this and what it means to have conflicting messages in your head, yet my thicko unconscious still isn't up to speed and with the programme?!
quote:
So, there. I said it. Out loud. In public. In front of all the Vixens. (I know this sounds strange, but consider the fact that I've spent more than two decades "in the closet" with my interest in hypnosis. Which is in itself strange, I know, but it is what it is.)
There's no shame here ButMad, come out from under that chair and be proud and happy that you found something that worked for you. (I'm curious, but I won't ask! ) NB, Think you should start seperate thread for this, it's an interesting topic and I would be interested to understand it better.
I was hypnotised once before. I can't say it did anything for me. I do think I went with an open mind and actually was really curious about how it would feel, maybe wanted it too much? I dunno. But I found myself positively not hypnotised. Nothing really happened at all in fact. I was relaxed and comfortable and the words were, I guess soothing, but I didn't feel anything beyond that. The hypnotist said he would count down from ten to 'wake me' but I found myself thinking 'should I open my eyes on ten? Or do I slowly open them from one?'!
Perhaps I was expecting something that isn't there. I just felt that nothing had been done that I couldn't have got a random stranger to do. However, I know people that swear by it and says it has worked wonders for them and evidently it has done so. As you so rightly pointed out ButMad, what works for one person, will not necassarily work for another or I'm just a freak.
O no! Now I've gone off on it! Your fault, you started it!
quote:
I'm hoping that our conversation might have some lurkers who are gleaning just as much from our rambling as we are.
Too right, any other smokers out there feel like quitting?
ButMad you are a wealth of knowledge, humour and kindness. Now could you stop being so damn interesting so I can stay out of here for a few minutes?!
*wanders off to find avatar, 'Yoo hoo, Avatar! Where are you?'*
Last edited by freedom4ever, 7/24/2007, 9:17 am
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7/24/2007, 9:09 am
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ButMadNNW
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Re: "Secondhand smoke and pets" AND "Becoming a Non-Smoker"
quote:
freedom4ever wrote:
ButMad you are a wealth of knowledge, humour and kindness. Now could you stop being so damn interesting so I can stay out of here for a few minutes?!
Modest side: Aw, gawrsh!
Evil side: NEVER!
(This post is just to assure you that I haven't forgotten you, I just don't have time to craft a proper response right now. "I'll be bach" - you be Beethoven! )
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7/25/2007, 9:27 pm
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Tamlin
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Re: "Secondhand smoke and pets" AND "Becoming a Non-Smoker"
ButMad, the rename took me by surprise for a moment, but I certainly don't mind! I like where this discussion went.
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7/26/2007, 3:26 pm
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