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Robert91
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Laws vs customs
I've looked into it and though I see quite a few places about NY state being the only state in the US where topfreedom is legal, I can't find anything about it being illegal here in NH. Our laws about indecent exposure don't mention anything about women's breasts. The only things I can find on a related subject are cases upholding clubs rights to allow toplessness.
It seems that regardless of what the laws actually say, it is social customs that really come in to play. Where topfreedom is generally practiced and socially acceptable it won't matter much if there is some old law on the books saying it is illegal. On the other hand in places like NY where it has been brought before the courts and declared legal, but is still considered socially unacceptable, you may still run into serious problems going topfree.
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10/2/2007, 7:13 am
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Carly44
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Re: Laws vs customs
We've got a lawyer in the family, so I asked him. He said that while state laws may not address topfreedom, many community ordinances do, especially if there are bars in the town. Also, you can often be charged with disorderly conduct, which is on the books everywhere. Still, your chances of getting arrested are pretty slim, unless you argue with the cop.
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10/2/2007, 9:37 am
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NHporc
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Re: Laws vs customs
quote:
Robert91 wrote:
I've looked into it and though I see quite a few places about NY state being the only state in the US where topfreedom is legal, I can't find anything about it being illegal here in NH. Our laws about indecent exposure don't mention anything about women's breasts. The only things I can find on a related subject are cases upholding clubs rights to allow toplessness.
I took a look also. I did find RSA 645 which reads:quote:
I. A person is guilty of a misdemeanor if such person:
(a) Fornicates, exposes his or her genitals or performs any other act of gross lewdness under circumstances which he or she should know will likely cause affront or alarm.
It seems this may be subjective enough that it could be taken to court. As Carly mentioned, the local towns may have restritions also.
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10/5/2007, 9:22 pm
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nakedgirl
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Re: Laws vs customs
I was once threatened with arrest, as a teen, for walking a beach in a bikini top and thong bottom. I really don't know what the law in the south Georgia islands was at the time, but I didn't want to have to involve the cops. I was a teenager on vacation with the family and didn't want it to become an issue to mess up anyones' vacation. Although at same trip me and my best friend got the evil eye for being nude in a womans' changing room, as we changed clothes from our swimsuits to our "street clothes". Welcome to the Bible Belt!!
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10/12/2007, 2:36 am
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meredith2kp4
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Re: Laws vs customs
quote:
nakedgirl wrote:
Although at same trip me and my best friend got the evil eye for being nude in a womans' changing room, as we changed clothes from our swimsuits to our "street clothes". Welcome to the Bible Belt!!
It is not only in the Bible Belt. A longtime
friend of my wife moved from Katonah, NY, an upper middle class suburb of New York City, to East Greenbush, NY, a blue collar suburb of Albany. Her daughter showered nude in the girls' locker room in the upper middle class suburb with no problem, but in the blue collar suburb, which had substantial drug and teen pregnancy problems, when she did what she had always done before, she found out that doing so there was an absolute no-no.
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10/12/2007, 3:00 pm
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oddET
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Re: Laws vs customs
quote:
meredith2kp4 wrote:
A longtime friend of my wife moved from Katonah, NY, an upper middle class suburb of New York City, to East Greenbush, NY, a blue collar suburb of Albany. Her daughter showered nude in the girls' locker room in the upper middle class suburb with no problem, but in the blue collar suburb, which had substantial drug and teen pregnancy problems, when she did what she had always done before, she found out that doing so there was an absolute no-no.
Wha-huh??? How exactly did they expect her to shower--fully clothed? And what the hezmana do drugs and pregnancy have to do with it?
I gotta stop thinking about this. The illogic is making my ears bleed.
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10/12/2007, 5:55 pm
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nautical62
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Re: Laws vs customs
To follow up on what Carly said, many applicable laws are local ordinances.
Sometimes these ordinances are aimed specifically as sex, such as the strip club industry but are written such that they affect non-sexual nudity as well.
At other times, they are aimed at sexuality, but people, even law enforcement does not really understand this. I know of a case where some students were arrested for streaking under a local indecent exposure ordinance, but were later let go because the ordinance stated it had to be of a sexual nature which the complaint could not prove.
I'm also surprised at how many laws are also very subjective possibly having to do with how some feels rather than how someone behaves. When laws are subjective, it leaves more room for local custom to influence how laws are enforced.
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12/6/2008, 1:51 pm
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JamesRuns
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Re: Laws vs customs
In the USA the state laws are often vague. Frequently you are faced with a patchwork of county and city ordinances. The state, county county and city ordinances apply at the same time. These are laws.
There may also be park rules, that are in turn backed by a law, which says it's a misdemeanor to disobey the park rules. Park rules don't go through the same legislative process as normal laws, so they can be willed and woolly, and often fail in court.
Local laws are frequently made more complex still because they commonly have a section relating to 'nudity' as defined for bars or licensed establishments that serve alcohol and may or may not have another section defining nudity for everywhere outside a bar. So a town or county will often have one standard for bars, and another for everywhere outside a bar, and maybe another for the beaches.
Just because you find a definition of nudity in a local law, does not mean it automatically applies everywhere: It may be only for topless night clubs.
The real problem with local ordinances is that they have rarely been taken through the courts to the point of appeal, so there is very little good case law. (Case law being made of the appellate court decisions.)
In the USA the current case law is the final word on the interpretation of the laws and ordinances, and that's a bit of a moving target because it evolves over time.
Police and park rangers often know little of the current 'case law', and frequently confuse the more restrictive laws for bars with the law for normal people. They tend to rely on their personal interpretation of the text of the local law. The ambiguous nature of many ordinances means the law is open to interpretation, and this can lead to well meant confusion or deliberate abuse.
Because laws and rule are by their very nature restrictive, the system is inherently setup to tell you what you can't do, not what you can.
Therefore people frequently have more rights than they exercise because people don't realize that they have the right to go topfree and/or wear a thong because the laws and rules don't explicitly say you can.
One of the ways around the fog and confusion caused by overlapping layers of ambiguous laws and rules is to get an 'advisory opinion' from a court, but this takes time and if you are not a lawyer, money. You also need to make sure the case is well made becuase you don't really want to pay money to get an unfavorable opinion in the record.
The significant advantage of getting an advisory opinion ahead of the action is because at that time the state has no real axe to grind and probably won't mount a serious opposition, this is becuase it's not part of an attempt to obtain an after the fact prosecution.
One way you can get a free opinion that may be as useful is to just ask the park or city, in a formal way by letter. If you explicitly ask for their legal interpretations of the law, not just if you can, then your letter is normally turned over to their legal department before answering. This is one way you can get them to do the initial legal leg work.
Often such a simple written request for clarification of the law can get you several useful bit's of information: First it may get you a letter telling you it is ok! Woopee! A very useful document to have on hand.
It may also get you the information on what specific law they think apples in that location. If the reply has come from the legal department the relevant bit of the law is likely to be referenced or quoted verbatim. This is nice because it is useful to know what you are up against, or what law they are relying on to suggest you should not.
The other advantage of this approach is that a letter telling you that it's not allowed is not a legally precedent setting court opinion. (We all want to minimize the number of negative court rulings.)
Once you know the section of law that the officials think applies to your question, you should seek out a friend who is an attorney, or a friendly attorney, to help you research what 'case law' exists on that issue, or similar ordinances from other counties and cities in the state. (You may also be able to do the research your self if you get access to Westlaw through your local law library or, if your court house has it, a 'pro se' help center.)
Remember, local ordinances may be still on the books just because no one has seriously challenged them in court. Courts frequently strike local ordinances just because they are poorly worded or vague, or because the court finds that a similar ordnance in an adjoining local jurisdiction has been previously struck.
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12/7/2008, 1:27 pm
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DavyJ1
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Re: Laws vs customs
Interesting thread. One problem for getting topfreedom more accepted is that even where it is legal, very few women actually exercise their rights. Topfree is also legal in Ohio, and you will occasionally see topless women at various state parks (some more than others). [Best to use state parks to avoid more restrictive local ordinances, as has been noted] But it is not common anywhere and I suspect NY is the same. So the "custom" against topfreedom remains strong even where it is legal. This causes all sorts of problems, like police and patrons ignorant of the law. How does one change that? Not an easy question.
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4/14/2009, 8:00 am
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richnh
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Re: Laws vs customs
Honestly, I think it is changing, but at a generational (glacial) pace. The American attitude on topfreedom needs to be considered in two views, like the weather and climate.
While there seems to be a trend against topfreedom in the US right now, I think that is more short term like week to week weather. The long term change is for more topfreedom. I do believe that 50 years from now topfreedom will be much more prevalent than it is today or was 50 years ago.
In that slow grinding change, groups like this one play an important part.
Rich
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4/16/2009, 7:03 am
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